ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

HEALTH

The Secretary of State was asked-

GP Commissioning

Mark Lancaster: What recent progress he has made in introducing GP commissioning consortia.

Stephen Mosley: What recent progress he has made in introducing GP commissioning consortia.

Nick de Bois: What recent progress he has made in introducing GP commissioning consortia.

Matthew Offord: What recent progress he has made in introducing GP commissioning consortia.

Christopher Pincher: What recent progress he has made in introducing GP commissioning consortia.

Andrew Lansley: Last week, I announced the second wave of GP-led pathfinder consortia. There are now 141 groups of GP practices piloting the future GP commissioning arrangements. Those groups are made up of more than 4,000 GP practices, with over half the population starting to benefit from services that better meet their needs and improve outcomes for patients. The Health and Social Care Bill, which had its First Reading last week, sets out the legislative framework that supports our reforms.

Mark Lancaster: Consortia in Milton Keynes have been given £1 per patient as a transition fund. That money is most welcome. It will rise to £2 per head next year. The problem, however, is that the fund is proving hard to access because of the bureaucratic nature of the local primary care trust. Will the Secretary of State look into that and ensure that the money is accessible?

Andrew Lansley: I entirely understand my hon. Friend's point. The PCT's role is to support the development of consortia, not inhibit it. The operating framework that was published last month sets out the range of support that PCTs should be offering emerging consortia. Milton Keynes PCT has confirmed that it will actively support Premier MK, one of two consortia in the area, with its application to become a pathfinder, and that it is actively working with another consortium in the Milton Keynes area.

Stephen Mosley: Pathfinder consortia will play a crucial role in improving the NHS, so it is imperative that any problems are sorted out as quickly as possible. How does my right hon. Friend propose to help any pathfinder consortium that finds itself in the unfortunate position of failing to deliver the results expected of it?

Andrew Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important point. He will recall that before the election, the Select Committee on Health severely criticised the way in which primary care trusts were going about commissioning. We are looking to consortia because they are clinically led and responsive to patients in designing far better clinical services, and they will have considerable support in doing so. Over the next two years, we will enable them to develop support arrangements, whether through existing primary care trust teams, local authorities, the NHS commissioning board, or a range of voluntary and independent sector organisations.

Nick de Bois: Will the Secretary of State outline the role that charities and voluntary organisations will play under GP commissioning to ensure that the needs and views of patients are at the heart of services?

Andrew Lansley: To give my hon. Friend one example, last Friday I spoke to the Motor Neurone Disease Association, which has developed a commissioning support organisation with the Multiple Sclerosis Society and Parkinson's UK. The voluntary sector can therefore be involved directly in helping GP consortia to commission for those critical diseases more effectively. My hon. Friend might have seen what Sir Stephen Bubb, the chief executive of the Association of Chief Executives of Voluntary Organisations, said last week:
	"These reforms could herald a new and dynamic relationship between local GPs and charities that both deliver good services and act as a powerful voice for patients."

Matthew Offord: My constituents in Hendon are eager to see the improvements in health services that I believe GP commissioning will bring about. Will my right hon. Friend give examples of where GPs have had the freedoms and responsibilities that we can expect in Hendon?

Andrew Lansley: My hon. Friend might like to speak to general practitioners in Redbridge in London who, as a pathfinder consortium, have been pioneering GP-led commissioning for 18 months. They have redesigned care for patients with diabetes and coronary artery disease, and are shifting care in ophthalmology and dermatology to primary care settings. They are demonstrating how this form of locally and clinically-led commissioning is more responsive to patients and more effective.

Christopher Pincher: As we shift from PCTs commissioning services to GP consortia doing so, can my right hon. Friend confirm that the important work done by pharmacies, such as providing anti-smoking clinics and the supervised consumption of drug substitutes, will not be left out in the cold?

Andrew Lansley: My hon. Friend enables me to say that I and my colleagues entirely understand and endorse the stronger role that pharmacies can play, including by assisting with the provision of services such as minor ailments services and medicines use reviews, which will be commissioned through arrangements led by the NHS commissioning board. In addition, the services that he describes, such as stop smoking services, will be commissioned as part of the public health efforts, which will be led by local authorities through their local health improvement plans.

Emma Reynolds: Will the Secretary of State comment on the apparent conflict between, on the one hand, a general practitioner being an advocate for their patient and taking purely clinical decisions and, on the other hand, GPs having to allocate resources in the new system? Will that conflict not lead to a breakdown of trust in the relationship between the GP and their patients?

Andrew Lansley: I am afraid the hon. Lady sees a conflict where, to GPs, there is none. It is their responsibility- [Interruption.] No, their first duty is always to their patients, whose best interests they must secure. When she has an opportunity to look at the Health and Social Care Bill, which we published last week, she will see that it makes very clear the duty to improve quality and continuously to improve standards. We all know that we have to achieve that with finite resources, but we will do that much better when we let clinical leaders influence directly how those resources are used rather than letting a management bureaucracy tell them how to do it.

Debbie Abrahams: Can the Secretary of State explain why, at a time when front-line NHS staff in my constituency and elsewhere across the country are in fear of their jobs, it is proposed that the NHS commissioning board will be able to make bonus payments to a GP consortium if, to quote the Bill,
	"it considers that the consortium has performed well",
	and that a GP consortium may
	"distribute any payments received by it...among its members"?
	Is that not the worst kind of excess? We do not want to see it in our banking system, and we certainly do not want to see it in our NHS.

Andrew Lansley: I am glad to have the opportunity to welcome the hon. Lady to the Opposition Benches and wish her well in representing Oldham East and Saddleworth. I am sorry that she did not take the opportunity to welcome in particular the Government's commitment to the new women and children's unit at the Royal Oldham hospital.
	For years, general practices have been remunerated partly through a quality and outcomes framework. The principle is that if they deliver better outcomes for patients, they should have a corresponding benefit from doing so. In the same way, if the commissioning consortia deliver improving outcomes for patients, that should be recognised in their overall reward.

John Healey: The Secretary of State talks a lot about GPs using £80 billion of public money to commission services, but if they are to carry on being family doctors, the planning, negotiating, managing and monitoring of hundreds of commissioning contracts will be done not by GPs but in their name, either by the people who do it now in primary care trusts or by the big health companies that are already hard-selling the service to new GP consortia. Is he not deliberately disguising the true purpose of his changes, which is to open up all parts of the NHS to big private health care companies?

Andrew Lansley: On the contrary, the purposes of the Bill are very clear to see-for example, the duty to improve quality and raise standards throughout the health service. I hope that the shadow Secretary of State will acknowledge that putting clinical leadership at the heart of the system is essential. I entirely understand that leadership is not the same thing as management, as do general practitioners. The Prime Minister and I will meet the first wave of pathfinder consortia tomorrow, and we will support them in taking clinical leadership in designing services for patients and bringing to bear the best management support in doing so.

John Healey: Why will the right hon. Gentleman not be straight with the public? I have with me the White Paper-57 pages and only three references to the market, all of them to the social market. He talks about GP commissioning, but not about the hard-line political ideology that underlines these changes. The Bill puts no limit on the use of NHS beds and staff to treat private patients, it puts no limits on big private health care companies undercutting and undermining local hospitals, and it puts at the heart of the new system an economic regulator charged not with improving services but with guaranteeing and enforcing competition. Is this NHS reorganisation not like an iceberg, with the substantial ideological bulk being kept out of the public's sight?

Andrew Lansley: The shadow Secretary of State cannot actually criticise what we put forward in the White Paper or the Bill and is resorting to inventing something else and attacking that. Let me tell him that the one thing we will not do with the private sector is rig the market so that private companies get contracts and guaranteed money whether or not they treat patients. We are not going to give them 11% more money than the NHS would get for doing the same work. We will give NHS organisations a proper chance to deliver services for patients.

Liz Kendall: Whatever the Secretary of State claims about his reorganisation, a King's Fund survey showed that more than three quarters of doctors do not believe that it will improve patient care, and even his Department's impact assessment on the Health and Social Care Bill says that the reorganisation risks distracting staff and making them less focused on patient care.
	Will the Health Secretary now confirm that the number of patients waiting more than six weeks for their cancer test has already doubled under this Government, and that routine operations are being cancelled? Will he finally listen to the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association, which have told him that his plans are
	"extremely risky and potentially disastrous"
	for the NHS and patient care?

Andrew Lansley: I find it astonishing that the hon. Lady should attack the NHS because some elective operations have been cancelled. We have been through a flu outbreak and very severe weather, and that is what happens as a consequence. She should not try to make a political point out of it.
	It is also astonishing that the hon. Lady gets up and says that she does not agree with our policy. On 3 December, she is quoted in  GP news as saying that
	"it is 'absolutely right' that GPs are 'better involved' in commissioning services."
	She supported it. The truth is that before the election the Labour Government instituted practice-based commissioning, introduced foundation trusts, started payment by results and said that patient choice was right. The shadow Secretary of State said just last week that
	"these plans"-
	our plans-
	"are consistent, coherent and comprehensive",
	and indeed they are.

Tim Farron: Cumbria's current health commissioners-the PCT-chose to scrap the heart unit at Westmorland general hospital, despite medical, clinical and public opposition. Will the Secretary of State confirm that new GP fundholding arrangements allows the possibility of returning services that are clinically supportable, such as a heart unit at Westmorland general?

Andrew Lansley: I know, not least from visiting that hospital, how strongly people in my hon. Friend's area feel about their access to services locally. I am pleased to say that he will see in the Bill that one of the duties of the NHS commissioning board is to reduce inequalities in access to health services, and GPs can do precisely that.

Stephen Hepburn: The Secretary of State knows fine well that the British public knew nothing at the general election of his plans dramatically to dismantle and privatise the NHS. Will he give them a say now and have a referendum on the issue?

Andrew Lansley: Since we have no plan either to dismantle or to privatise the NHS, it is no surprise that people were not told of any such plan. Before the election and in the Conservative manifesto, people were told of our determination to cut bureaucracy and get money to front-line care. They were told of the determination of both parties in the coalition to get decision making close to the front line, to enhance accountability, including democratic accountability, and to give greater responsibility to clinicians to lead the development of services.

Cancer Survival Rates

Charlie Elphicke: What steps he plans to take to increase cancer survival rates.

Graham Evans: What assessment he has made of the effects on survival rates of his Department's cancer strategy.

Paul Burstow: We published "Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer" on 12 January, which sets out a range of actions to improve cancer outcomes, including diagnosing cancer earlier, helping people to live healthier lives to reduce preventable cancers, screening more people, introducing new screening programmes, and ensuring that all patients have access to the best possible treatment, care and support. Through those approaches, we aim to save at least an additional 5,000 lives every year by 2014-15.

Charlie Elphicke: May I raise the case of my constituent, Suzanne Lloyd, who was diagnosed with breast cancer a decade ago? She was told that she had two years to live, but has successfully battled cancer for the last decade. The problem is that she has also been battling health chiefs to give her the drugs that she needs to extend her life. Will the Minister tell the House about measures to increase longevity through greater drug access?

Paul Burstow: Just last year the national clinical director published a report on the extent and causes of international variations in drug usage, which revealed that the UK tends to lag behind other countries in its use of newer cancer drugs. That is one reason why we have introduced the interim cancer drugs fund of £50 million in this current year and will introduce the full fund of £200 million from this April. That will help my hon. Friend's constituent.

Graham Evans: What steps is my hon. Friend taking to ensure that all GP consortia will have access to the expertise they need to commission cancer services effectively?

Paul Burstow: The national cancer director will work with pathfinder GP consortia on commissioning cancer services, and that work will be fed into a cancer commissioning support pack that will be developed to support GP commissioners in discharging their functions effectively. Cancer networks will also be well placed to support GP consortia in that activity.

David Blunkett: We all agree that properly evaluated, appropriately prescribed drugs make a big difference to survival, which is why patients welcome what was described as the additional special fund, of which Ministers made mention this afternoon, of £200 million for the coming two years. Why is it, therefore, that the budget for Sheffield has been top-sliced for next year to the tune of £1.5 million to pay towards this £200 million, which was supposed to be additional-to add to and not subtract from-what was available through GP commissioning?

Paul Burstow: The NHS has real-terms increases in its resources, and those resources are going into the programme that we outlined in our outcome strategy. Three quarters of a billion pounds will be going into that programme to deliver improvements in cancer services and the £200 million, being extra, will go into improving cancer services. That is the commitment that the Government have made and that is the investment that we will make.

Emily Thornberry: Is the Minister listening when Macmillan warns that the proposed changes to the NHS risk us losing expertise in the cancer networks? If that happens, Macmillan says that
	"cancer treatment will get worse...some treatments could even collapse in parts of the country...more patients could die earlier".
	As the Minister in charge of cancer services, should not he be on the side of cancer patients, not backing his boss's reckless reforms?

Paul Burstow: The last comment was pretty cheap, and no Government Member has suggested that the future of the cancer networks is in doubt. Indeed, in the coming financial year, the funding is secure. As we move to the new arrangements, it will be for the NHS commissioning board to decide the appropriate arrangements for commissioning in the future. We are clear that the expertise of those groups could, should and will continue to be used to support commissioning in the future.

Social and Health Care

Annette Brooke: What steps he is taking to improve co-ordination of social care and health care for the benefit of patients.

Paul Burstow: We have set out in the White Paper "Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS" and the Health and Social Care Bill how we will deliver the coalition programme for Government commitment to promote greater integrated working. This includes local authorities taking the lead role in the future in joining up local NHS services, social care and health improvement via council-led health and well-being boards.

Annette Brooke: Can my hon. Friend assure me that there will be a joined-up approach when addressing patients' interests and complaints when they straddle social care? Perhaps a single point of contact for a complaint would be a good step forward from what we have now.

Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the need to integrate not only the way in which we deliver and plan services, but the way in which we manage complaints. That is why the Government have included in the Bill our proposals for the establishment of local healthwatch and healthwatch England. Local healthwatch will have the ability to deal with complaints and also have the capacity to refer concerns about services to the Care Quality Commission so that it can take the necessary steps to investigate. In that way, we will deliver a more integrated system for dealing with such complaints.

Barry Sheerman: Is the Minister aware that most of us are in favour of much better co-ordination of these services, but we worry about the backdrop of the reforms? In Yorkshire, some doctors are saying, "Come on, guys, this is a bonanza and we will all be California-style millionaires under these reforms." What sort of a backdrop is that for health care reforms and better co-ordination of services?

Paul Burstow: The backdrop that the hon. Gentleman has just painted is a rather thin one. In fact, it does not exist at all. The Government set out in the Bill we published last week that there will be clear responsibilities on GP commissioning consortia, working in partnership with their colleagues in local government, to commission services in ways that will improve quality of life for people in his constituency, my constituency and the constituencies of all hon. Members.

Stephen Dorrell: Does my hon. Friend agree that improved co-ordination between health and social care is fundamental to the delivery of the efficiency challenge faced by the health service and social services? Does he further agree that the £1 billion provided by the health service to reinforce that relationship is an important step taken by the Government to reinforce that interface? Can he assure the House that, as we move into the new world, the existing arrangements for good practice across that interface will be preserved?

Mr Speaker: Order. I know that three questions will attract one answer from the Minister.

Paul Burstow: The answer to all those questions is yes. The right hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the additional money going into social care via the NHS. It is intended to kick-start the collaborative working that was often so absent under the previous Administration.

Anne Begg: The care that someone gets can be defined as either "social care" or "health care", and that can determine the benefits to which an individual is entitled. With that in mind, what conversations has the Minister had with the Minister with responsibility for disabled people about the Government's proposal to withdraw mobility disability living allowance from those staying in residential care?

Paul Burstow: I and the Minister responsible for disability issues in the Department for Work and Pensions meet regularly. In fact, a further meeting on this and other matters is coming up shortly.

Alcohol Misuse (Young People)

Fiona Bruce: What recent steps he has taken to reduce levels of alcohol misuse among young people.

Anne Milton: The public health White Paper, "Healthy Lives, Healthy People", sets out how society can harness the efforts of individuals, families, local and national Government, and the private, voluntary and community sectors to take better care of our children's health and development.

Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for that reply. Hon. Members will be aware of the recent publicity given to vodka eye-balling, which is a dangerous practice. Members of the ArcAngel volunteer team in my constituency are going into schools seeking to alert young people to this and other dangers of binge drinking and excessive alcohol abuse. What support can the Minister offer to ensure that we can eradicate, in particular, the dangerous practice of vodka eye-balling?

Anne Milton: I thank my hon. Friend for her question, particularly in highlighting this extraordinary practice. I have to say, it was news to me. I congratulate the efforts of that local organisation on highlighting this sort of issue with school children. There is no doubt that vodka eye-balling can cause damage to the surface of the eye, ulceration and scarring. Although it has got some publicity, however, a lot of young people are likely to be drunk in the first place when they do it, so the effects are probably overestimated.

Kevin Barron: Did the Minister hear the report on Radio 4 this morning that in the past decade there has been a 50% increase in the number of young people in their 30s being admitted to hospital with alcohol-related liver disease? Does she think that we ought to be looking at how alcohol is promoted and advertised around young people?

Anne Milton: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. I heard the report, and I think that it made particular reference to the worrying trend among young women as well. There is no doubt that our public health White Paper is timely. We need to do something about this. It is important to remember that no one tool will fix this problem; we need to take a wide variety of measures and alter, in particular, young people's relationship with alcohol. However, we will not do that until we get a proper strategy out there.

Simon Hughes: Do Ministers clearly understand that the price of alcohol is a relevant consideration? Will they look at whether we can get relatively cheaper prices for soft and sports drinks? They are a viable alternative for many young people, but the price is often double that for alcohol.

Anne Milton: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. There is no doubt that price is one of the tools to which I referred. However, we need to take a huge number of actions. Reforming the Licensing Act 2003 via the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill will bring in a number of measures-for instance, doubling the fines for under-age alcohol sales to £20,000 and giving councils and the police the power to shut permanently shops or bars that persistently sell alcohol to children. That is one other way. Also, the Bill will make local health bosses responsible authorities for licensing decisions. That is an important shift and demonstrates the fact that this is everybody's problem-no one public body can cure this on its own.

NHS Reorganisation

Alison McGovern: What recent representations he has received on his plans for the internal reorganisation of the NHS; and if he will make a statement.

Bridget Phillipson: What recent representations he has received on his plans for the internal reorganisation of the NHS; and if he will make a statement.

Simon Burns: The Government received more than 6,000 responses to the NHS White Paper consultations. As a result, we have strengthened both our approach to implementation and our proposals in the Health and Social Care Bill, which was introduced in Parliament last week.

Alison McGovern: The Government have embarked on a reorganisation of our health service that involves altering the commissioning process, handing responsibility to those with less experience of contracting, and at the same time unleashing the market, allowing a whole load of new providers in. What risks does the Minister see might be associated with that approach?

Simon Burns: The risk is that if we do not go ahead with these reforms, which are crucial to raising standards and improving outcomes, patient care, survival rates and treatment, we will be doing a grave disservice to the people of this country.

Bridget Phillipson: Last week, north-east regional board members of the British Medical Association made it abundantly clear to me and other north-east colleagues that they have serious concerns about the Government's plans and that they risk patient care. How is it that the Minister is right and they are wrong?

Simon Burns: Because I am afraid that the hon. Lady has not read the whole document, in this case from the BMA, or those from other organisations. What many say, including the BMA, on many of the proposals is that they are supportive of them, but naturally the hon. Lady and others cherry-pick those parts that suit their arguments.

Patrick Mercer: The Minister will be only too aware of the worries of my constituents in Newark about the future of the hospital. Will he assure me that the internal reorganisation of the NHS will run in parallel with and improve the delivery of the Newark health care review, rather than the contrary?

Simon Burns: Yes, and let me reassure my hon. Friend-because last summer I had the pleasure of joining him to visit what is an excellent hospital for the people of Newark-that under our reforms, given the commissioning powers of the GP consortia in the area, they will be able to help strengthen and tailor the health care that the hospital delivers, ensuring that it meets the needs of the people of Newark.

Edward Timpson: How does my hon. Friend envisage the commissioning of ambulance services under the new GP commissioning regime?

Simon Burns: Ambulance services will be commissioned through the GP consortia at the local level. What I envisage-this is not prescriptive from the Department of Health, but what I think will develop-is that, just as ambulance services are currently commissioned for geographical areas in England through one PCT, the consortia will appoint lead consortia to commission the services for that area.

Diane Abbott: Does the Minister agree with the representations of the Select Committee on Health, chaired by the hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), when it said that it was
	"surprised by the change of approach between the Coalition Programme"
	in May
	"and the White Paper"
	in July? The Committee continued:
	"The White Paper proposes a disruptive reorganisation of the institutional structure of the NHS which was subject to little prior discussion and not foreshadowed in the Coalition Programme."
	If he cannot convince his hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood, how is he going to convince the rest of us?

Simon Burns: Let me begin by congratulating my, in fact, right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood on the report that his Committee produced. The Government will give a full response to it in due course, as is usual. What I would tell the hon. Lady is that what happened in the Bill and the White Paper was what we and our coalition colleagues, the Liberal Democrats, had outlined in our election manifestos, which- [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members may say that, but I suggest that they look at pages 45 to 47 of the Conservative manifesto, which probably very few of them have bothered to do. GP commissioning, along with "any willing provider" et al, are there, and if one looks at the Liberal Democrat one- [ Interruption. ]

Mr Speaker: Order. The Minister's answer must be heard.

Simon Burns: I am extremely grateful, Mr Speaker.
	If we look at the Liberal Democrat manifesto, we can see that it also contains proposals for the abolition of strategic health authorities. The hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) has alluded to the abolition of PCTs, and the reason for their abolition is that, when we have given the commissioning to GP consortia and the public health responsibilities to local authorities, there will be no job for the PCTs to do. Why keep them? There will be £5 billion savings during this Parliament that can be reinvested in front-line services.

Video Link Consultations (Prisons)

Philip Davies: What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of video link medical consultations in prisons.

Paul Burstow: The Department has made no assessment. PCTs and prison partnerships may consider using telemedicine as an alternative to hospital appointments for offenders, after considering any security issues and the benefits for improved health care. Decisions about treatments for offenders, including video link consultations, are made by local commissioners.

Philip Davies: Red Embedded Design, an SME technology company in my constituency, is working in partnership with Airedale NHS Foundation Trust to enable video link medical consultations to take place in prisons. May I suggest that the Minister look closely at this scheme, which has been rolled out in a number of prisons? He will see the cost benefits and the lack of risk of absconding involved. Will he encourage other PCTs around the country to introduce the system in their prisons?

Paul Burstow: As part of a wider programme, a demonstrator project looking at telemedicine and telecare, we are looking at a possible roll-out of such approaches. In regard to the specific case of the Airedale NHS Foundation Trust, I would be only too happy to look further at the details and the benefits that have arisen.

Denis MacShane: Telemedicine is obviously a help, but nothing beats talking to a real human being about our medical problems. Would the ministerial team consider copying the Conservative-Liberal Government in Sweden, who have banned from all public agencies, including health agencies, automatic answering machines-the kind that tell us to "Press 1", "Press 2" or "Press 3"? Instead, people calling those agencies have to speak to a real live Swede in Sweden. Would not that be a good step forward for our health service?

Paul Burstow: The right hon. Gentleman has found a cunning way of getting in a point that does not directly relate to the question. He makes a very fair point, however. It is important that people should feel confident that, when they pick up the phone and make a call, they can speak to a person. Telemedicine can provide that route as well, through allowing people to get a diagnosis and treatment, as well as access to the appropriate support at the right time.

BCG Vaccine

Nicholas Dakin: If he will take steps to increase the availability of the BCG vaccine for children.

Anne Milton: I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that there are no problems with the availability of the BCG vaccine. I am also aware that he takes a personal interest in this subject because of his local experience. I am confident that those most at risk of contracting tuberculosis are being offered the BCG vaccination as part of a targeted national programme.

Nicholas Dakin: Does the Minister not think that it is time to widen that targeted national programme? Tuberculosis is an airborne infection, and it covers a broader area than the areas that are being focused on at the moment. Would not the widening of the programme improve protection?

Anne Milton: Yes, I would just like to point out to the hon. Gentleman that TB has changed from being a disease of the whole population to one that affects high-risk groups. In fact, the Joint Committee on Immunisation and Vaccination looked at this in 2005 and reaffirmed it in 2009. We are confident that this targeted approach is the best way of addressing the problem.

NHS Waiting Times

Ben Bradshaw: What assessment he has made of the likely effects on waiting times of his proposed reorganisation of the NHS.

Simon Burns: The proposed changes will focus the NHS on quality and the results that matter to patients-such as how successful their treatment was-and not just on bureaucratic processes such as waiting time targets. Waiting times are important to patients, along with the quality of their experience and outcomes, which will drive improvements in the future.

Ben Bradshaw: Well, what a revelation! I think that the Minister will find that the public do care about waiting times. Will he confirm that waiting times are already going up, that more people are already waiting more than 18 weeks-the maximum that we achieved when we were in government-and that the performance of accident and emergency departments has deteriorated since he watered down our A and E targets?

Simon Burns: I think that the right hon. Gentleman either did not hear my earlier remarks or had penned his question prior to hearing them. What I said was that waiting times are important to patients-and if he looks at the record tomorrow, he will see that. May I also explain to him that the average median time for the latest month available-November-shows patients completing a referral to treatment pathway in about 8.3 weeks? The right hon. Gentleman's comments on A and E are just factually wrong and somewhat cheap.

John Baron: There are concerns that some of the expertise of cancer networks might be lost because of the funding gap between the end of the Government's funding for the networks and the transition to full GP commissioning. Will the Government consider bridging this gap, at least until GP consortia are fully up and running-and therefore better able to make informed decisions about the commissioning of cancer network services?

Simon Burns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend in view of the considerable interest he takes and work he does in this field of health care. Let me reassure him that we have guaranteed the funding for next year, so it can work itself out to a successful conclusion thereafter through the cancer networks in the commissioning plans.

Derek Twigg: Under Labour, hospital waiting times were at a record low and satisfaction with the NHS in its current form was at a record high. Over the last few months, however-no matter how much the Secretary of State does not like it-we have seen more and more operations cancelled or postponed at our hospitals. A number of nurses in my constituency have written to tell me that they are short staffed. One of them pointed out that
	"those who have left are not being replaced".
	Is that not the true picture of what is going on in the NHS at the moment? If the Minister is confident in his Secretary of State's plans for the NHS, will he guarantee that under those plans, hospital waiting times will not rise-or is he going to duck the question like the Prime Minister did last week?

Simon Burns: Under these reforms, by concentrating on raising quality and outcomes, we will give improved quality health care for patients. What I can guarantee is that under these reforms, when implemented, people will not only get improved quality treatment but will see times based on clinical decisions rather than being distorted by political processes.

Elective Treatments

Fiona Mactaggart: What recent discussions he has had with primary care trusts on their policies on halting elective treatments in cases where such treatment has been demonstrated to be effective.

Simon Burns: Strategic health authorities have recently been reminded of the statutory commissioning responsibilities of their primary care trusts in this area, and the need to base commissioning decisions on clinical evidence and discussions with local GP commissioners, secondary care clinicians and providers.

Fiona Mactaggart: What is the Minister's response to the trusts that have been saving money by halting procedures such as hip and knee replacements, hernias and hysterectomies, which have proved to be clinically effective? My constituent, John Deas, has just lost the care of the nurse practitioner who has managed his prostate cancer over some years and has been referred to a GP who will not see him. As the president of the Royal College of Surgeons said that the immediate need to
	"save money by going for the soft targets of elective surgery will leave a lot of people with unpleasant symptoms and build up future health problems. Medically that makes no sense."
	Does it make any sense governmentally?

Simon Burns: I am sorry to hear about the example that the hon. Lady mentioned; if she would like to write to me with the details, I would be more than happy to look into it. PCTs have a continuing responsibility to provide clinical treatment for their patients. Obviously, once the PCTs cease to exist, that will happen through the GP consortia and the national commissioning board. There is also a legal right in the NHS constitution for patients to be treated when they need to be.

Stewart Jackson: A number of patient groups across the country are concerned about the future of in vitro fertilisation treatments, particularly when many PCTs downgraded it and put it on a par with things like tattoo removal and cosmetic surgery. Will the Minister confirm that, in future, IVF treatments will fall under the remit of the NHS commissioning board?

Simon Burns: Let me reassure my hon. Friend on IVF. PCT commissioners should have regard to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines for fertility treatment, including to the recommendation that up to three cycles of IVF treatment are offered to eligible couples. To reinforce this, in November last year, the NHS operations board reminded PCTs, through the SHAs, of that responsibility. Indeed, Mr David Flory of the Department of Health has in the last month or so written to PCTs to remind them of their responsibilities.

Medical Aids

Andrew Selous: What recent estimate he has made of the monetary value of medical aids issued to patients by hospitals and not returned in the latest period for which figures are available.

Anne Milton: As my hon. Friend knows, NHS patients are provided with NHS aids free of charge and requested to return them when they are no longer required. Obviously the cost of recovery must be weighed against the cost of the items being lent, but it is the responsibility of the local NHS to monitor the position and arrange for the recovery of medical aids when that is safe and cost-effective.

Andrew Selous: For many years the experience of my constituents, and indeed my own family, has been that hospitals often provide patients with, for example, crutches, without ever asking for them back. I accept that this is a matter for the management of local hospitals, but does my hon. Friend agree that the Department has an interest in ensuring value for taxpayers' money, and that the medical aids involved could be used by other patients who need them?

Anne Milton: I agree. One always hopes that people will act responsibly, and that they or their families will return medical aids. My hon. Friend may know that Bedford hospital has organised a scheme for the collection of aids, and that a number of voluntary organisations are also involved. However, the cost of collection and decontamination or cleansing is sometimes greater than the cost of the equipment itself. Crutches, for instance, cost between £11 and £20. Such is life today.

Topical Questions

David Rutley: If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Andrew Lansley: My responsibility is to lead the national health service in delivering improved health outcomes in England, to lead a public health service which improves the health of the nation and reduces health inequalities, and to lead the reform of adult social care which supports and protects vulnerable people.

David Rutley: Cheshire East council is working closely with local health care partners in my constituency to tackle the growing challenge of alcohol abuse, which not only causes serious illness and injury but costs our local primary care trust £34 million a year. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is the right way in which to tackle this growing problem, and will a member of his ministerial team meet me, along with representatives of the council, to help secure the best possible outcomes in Macclesfield?

Andrew Lansley: Of course we will support the efforts of my hon. Friend and his local council to tackle alcohol abuse. He will have heard what was said earlier by the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), which I entirely endorse.
	Local authorities and their communities should have a greater say in what happens in their areas. We will enable them to do so, through the Health and Social Care Bill, the establishment of local health improvement plans, and-as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary said-the alcohol strategy that we will introduce following the public health White Paper later in the year.

Ian Lavery: Does the Secretary of State envisage a time when GP consortia may be purchased by foreign companies, and operated and administered thousands of miles away across the globe?

Andrew Lansley: No, I do not. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has asked that question, because I think that there is a world of difference between the question of the exercising of clinical leadership by general practices as members of a consortium in an area and the question of from whom they derive management support. I believe that many will derive it from existing PCT teams, the voluntary sector and local authorities. Sometimes the independent sector will be involved, but it is a question of the consortium choosing where to go rather than being taken over.

Margot James: Some care homes that have received critical reports from the Care Quality Commission are reopening under the same management but with different names. The CQC's practice is to remove earlier poor reports from its website, leaving potential customers in the dark about the poor record of those homes. Will the Minister remind the CQC of its responsibility to highlight poor practice in care homes, and request that it change its practice?

Paul Burstow: I will certainly ensure that the CQC understands that that is a matter of concern. When it discharges home owners and deregisters them, after receiving an application for a fresh registration, it conducts a thorough appraisal and assessment of their fitness to provide the service. The new owner of a home may well have done a great deal of work in improving the quality of training given to staff, but I agree that it ought to be possible for people to look at the CQC's website and see reports on the quality of the previous provider so that they can assess that as well.

Paul Blomfield: A year ago, writing in  The Sun, the Prime Minister made a firm and passionate pledge to increase the number of midwives by 3,000. Last week, the chief executive of the NHS told the Public Accounts Committee that the NHS is now short by 4,500 midwives. Will the Secretary of State tell the House when he intends to implement plans to honour the Prime Minister's pledge-or can we take it that it is just another Conservative broken promise on the NHS?

Andrew Lansley: Well, I do not wish to embarrass the chief executive of the NHS, but actually, he told me he made an error-he was referring to health visitors, not midwives, when he was talking to the Public Accounts Committee. We are short of health visitors precisely because, through the life of the last Government, the number was continuously going down, and we are going to recruit more. Actually, we share the last Labour Government's commitment to increase the number of midwives, not least because of the increase in the number of births, and to do so in pace with that. As a consequence, in conversations that the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), and I have had with the Royal College of Midwives, we have made it clear that we will do all we possibly can. We already have more midwives in training than at any other time in our history.

John Stevenson: As Ministers are aware, GPs in north Cumbria are supportive of GP commissioning and are already working hard for its success. However, given the rural nature of the area, what support will be given to the local hospitals to ensure that they can provide secondary health care within the new regime, when they have to accommodate the additional costs of providing health care in a rural environment?

Andrew Lansley: Yes, I entirely endorse what my hon. Friend says about GPs in Cumbria. They are indeed very forward-looking and show that, even under the last Government, practice-based commissioning was demonstrating its benefits, and we are building on that. I mentioned earlier the duty in the Health and Social Care Bill on the NHS commissioning board to reduce inequalities in access to health care. That will be important for rural areas. The pricing arrangements, led by the commissioning board and Monitor, must also take into account varying costs associated with the delivery of care in different localities.

Tom Harris: If the Government will not even trust GPs with the responsibility of ordering flu vaccine, how on earth can they trust them with commissioning the care and treatment of cancer victims?

Andrew Lansley: Of course, it was the last Government who agreed the arrangements with GPs. It was the last Government who, in 2007, undertook a flu review when central procurement of flu vaccine was recommended, but did nothing about it. The public health responsibility is distinct from the commissioning responsibility for health care of patients. We will look at, and we have still to make a decision about, how we procure flu vaccine in future years. We may do it through central procurement or through continuing GP procurement; but either way, we will make sure that we improve on the system we inherited.

David Davies: Can the Minister tell us how much money is spent each year on disposable surgical instruments, and whether any thought has been given to greater use of properly sterilised reusable instruments?

Simon Burns: The straightforward answer to my hon. Friend's question is, £18 million per annum. The decision to use single-use instruments as opposed to reusable ones is based on many complex clinical factors. For this reason, these decisions are left for the determination of local trusts on the basis of safety, quality and value for money.

Grahame Morris: May I ask the Secretary of State directly about leaked documents seen by  The Northern Echo? They show that a £53 million NHS contract to provide health care services to the prison service in the north-east was awarded to a private company, Care UK, even though the NHS provider was marked higher on quality, delivery and risk. Care UK beat the NHS provider only on price. Is this confirmation of the Minister of State's remarks on  Newsnight, that this Bill will create a full market and full competition?

Andrew Lansley: The hon. Gentleman is asking about arrangements that we have inherited from his Government; they are from before the election and are nothing to do with the White Paper or the Bill. The contract to which he refers was let by the North East Offender Health Commissioning Unit. This was its procurement decision and it states that a competitive, robust and transparent process was followed. This was not a decision taken or influenced by the Department of Health.

Karen Lumley: In support of national obesity fortnight, which is currently running, I wish to raise awareness of this serious condition, which causes numerous deaths and other serious health conditions. Redditch has high levels of obesity compared with the average in England. NHS Worcestershire is doing a fantastic job, but what more can the Government do to ensure that the NHS will not be overly burdened with increasing obesity problems?

Anne Milton: I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue, and I know that her local council is running a number of schemes. As she knows, we have published a White Paper on public health, "Healthy Lives, Healthy People". In the spring, we will publish a document on reducing obesity, and we will set out how this will be tackled in the new public health systems and in the NHS. It is important to remember that at this time of year a number of people go on diets and try to lose weight and get fit, and I urge them all to carry on, including Members of this House.

Alun Michael: Does the Minister accept that during times of illness people often experience associated problems, for example, difficulties with employment and housing, and personal problems, with which they can be helped by the information available through StartHere? Will he ensure that his Department and others treat StartHere as essential to the provision of high-level public service?

Simon Burns: I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that question because, as he is aware from meetings that we have had, we have been supporting StartHere through NHS Choices. We are now reviewing the benefits of this joint working, and that will help us to understand potential contributions to savings to improve the information flow to those who may be excluded from the use of the internet. He may be interested to learn that I have today written to Ms Hamilton-Fairley, outlining where we are at the moment. I am anxious to resolve this as soon as possible, once the review has been completed.

Steve Brine: What does the Minister think is the likelihood of the pathfinder consortia examining commissioning arrangements for neurological conditions? This is particularly important, because conditions such as Parkinson's are not familiar to many general practitioners, and commissioning arrangements for these complex conditions are tricky, so they need specialist knowledge. They need to be getting expert support and advice, including from patients and third sector groups.

Paul Burstow: The hon. Gentleman makes some important points about how the new system provides the opportunity to access a range of new resources to develop the way in which commissioning is provided for people with neurological conditions. Not the least of these are the way in which the Neurological Alliance is working to provide a new structure for its way of operating at the local level to offer commissioning support and, from the Department, how the neurological commissioning support group will be able to work with early implementers of the health and well-being boards and pathfinder GP consortia to provide them with the necessary support to develop their capability in this area.

Luciana Berger: The Minister of State referred earlier to Labour Members cherry-picking quotes, but I do not believe that Laurence Buckman, chair of the British Medical Association's GP committee, was mincing his words when today he described the Government's reorganisation plans as "fatally flawed", warning that they
	"would see the poor, elderly, infirm and terminally ill in large parts of the country losing out".
	Why does the Secretary of State believe that he knows better than Dr Buckman?

Andrew Lansley: I do not recall the BMA ever agreeing with the previous Government. Let me provide one quote to the hon. Lady:
	"The general aims of reform are sound-greater role for clinicians in commissioning care, more involvement of patients, less bureaucracy and greater priority on improving health outcomes-and are common ground between patients, health professions and political parties."
	The shadow Secretary of State said that last week.

Duncan Hames: The NHS Litigation Authority has presented NHS Wiltshire with a bill for more than £3.5 million in clinical negligence scheme payments this year. Nationally, among closed claims, legal fees made up more than a third of costs last year. How does the Minister propose to switch this expenditure away from lawyers and towards front-line health services?

Andrew Lansley: I wish, first, to say two things, but there may be further to add. First, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Justice is working on the implementation of the Jackson review. That, in itself, will help considerably in reducing the extent to which these costs are consumed in legal fees, rather than proper compensation for clinical negligence. As we made clear in response to Lord Young's report, we will also pursue the question of whether we can have a fact-finding phase following up a claim against the national health service, so as to mitigate what is otherwise considerable additional cost on conditional fee arrangements and getting expert witnesses.

Dennis Skinner: Why is it that the Secretary of State does not compliment the Labour Government on providing £110 billion, starting with £33 billion in 1997? Is it not a fact that waiting times have fallen as a result of the nurses, the doctors and that money? Is he frightened to utter the words because in 2001 every single Tory MP marched through the Lobby not to give the money to the national health service?

Andrew Lansley: Let me remind the hon. Gentleman that at the general election we just fought we were the party that was committed to increased resources for the national health service. We are the coalition Government who, over this Parliament, will increase resources for the national health service by £10.7 billion, even in the face of the deficit we inherited from Labour. The hon. Gentleman's party's response was to tell us that we should cut the NHS, and we are not going to do it.

David Tredinnick: Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State please explain why it is taking so long for him to come to the House about the regulation of herbal medicine? He has to do that before April to comply with European legislation. What is the hold-up?

Anne Milton: I thank my hon. Friend for his question and I know that he has a keen interest in this subject. I share his frustration that the previous Government spent a long time not doing anything about it. The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency has identified the possibility of creating a national regulatory scheme, allowing authorised herbal practitioners to continue to commission unlicensed manufactured herbal medicines after 30 April. We are in discussions with the devolved Administrations, the Health Professions Council and the Complementary and Natural Healthcare Council about the feasibility of a statutory register. As I say, I share my hon. Friend's frustration but we will make proposals shortly.

William McCrea: Specialists in the field state that the figures that point to a more than 50% rise in young drinkers ending up in hospital are a gross underestimate of the serious problem. What further steps can the Department and the Government take to address this important problem?

Andrew Lansley: As the hon. Gentleman will recall from earlier exchanges, it is absolutely right that we must have a series of measures to tackle alcohol abuse. Price is part of it, as is the enforcement of legislation. Community alcohol partnerships have been very promising. We must have better alcohol education, and I spoke at the first annual conference of Drinkaware yesterday, encouraging it in the work that it does. We must understand that we have to change people's behaviour and that the damage that can be done is intense. As a consequence of chronic alcohol abuse, large numbers of people are coming in and out of intensive care units, presenting an enormous burden to the health service as well as doing great damage to themselves.

Gordon Birtwistle: The College of Emergency Medicine recently stated that if a hospital A and E unit is to be downgraded to an urgent care centre, the nearest A and E unit should be no more than 12 miles away. Will the Secretary of State revisit the cases of A and E units that were recently downgraded by the previous Government to urgent care centres when the nearest A and E unit is more than 12 miles away?

Andrew Lansley: Yes. My hon. Friend makes a very important point. I promise I will discuss with John Heyworth of the College of Emergency Medicine precisely the point that my hon. Friend has raised. The College of Emergency Medicine says that it does not recognise what an urgent care centre is. From its point of view, hospitals should either have an emergency department or an A and E or they should not. If they do not, it is very important to be clear that they do not. I feel that we need to be much clearer about the nature of the service provided in A and E departments and the distinction between that and the service provided in minor injury or minor illness centres.

David Wright: Do not the reorganisation plans for the NHS, coupled with cuts to local authority budgets, mean that public health projects in this country will effectively be binned?

Andrew Lansley: No, they will not. We are making very clear our determination to ring-fence public health budgets so that prevention does not suffer, as it did under the hon. Gentleman's Government. In 2005-06, the first things to disappear as a consequence of financial pressures were the public health budgets and public health staffing. We will not allow that to happen.

Zac Goldsmith: I welcome the Government's commitment to ending mixed-sex wards, but does the Secretary of State agree that it is both unnecessary and extreme to extend that policy to children's wards and to enforce it with the threat of fines?

Andrew Lansley: I entirely understand my hon. Friend's point, and the rules we have set out for the NHS are very clear. We are also clear that we will ensure, through the NHS, that people have access to the privacy and dignity they have a right to expect, contrary to what the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) has said. She said that as long as they get the treatment through the NHS, it does not matter whether they are in mixed-sex accommodation, but that is not our policy. It does matter, and we will enforce it.

Points of Order

Ivan Lewis: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport has today made an announcement of grave importance for the future of media in this country. Despite a clear recommendation from Ofcom and the Secretary of State's admission that he has been unable to reach agreement with News Corp on adequate remedies, he has failed to do the right thing and refer the bid to the Competition Commission. This follows the shambles of the Business Secretary's prejudicial conduct and doubts about the impartiality of the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister. Surely the Secretary of State should come to the House and justify his actions.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for giving me notice of his intention to raise a point of order. As he knows, there is a written ministerial statement today on this subject. I have not received any notice of an oral statement at this stage. What he has said will have been heard on the Treasury Bench and I trust that when the Minister has anything more to say, he will do so to the House at the first opportunity.

Grahame Morris: On a point of order, Mr Speaker, I wonder whether you would give the House your guidance. A few months ago, in topical Health questions, I asked the Secretary of State about a £53 million NHS contract that was awarded to a private health care company called Care UK. I have already written to the Cabinet Secretary about the apparent conflict of interest in relation to companies such as this and donations to the Conservative party, but I seek your advice on whether it would be more appropriate, in the interests of openness and for the benefit of people watching, if Ministers declared their interest when right hon. and hon. Members raised these issues in the Chamber.

Mr Speaker: There are very clear rules on these matters, which it is the responsibility of every Member of the House, including Ministers, to observe. I must say to the hon. Gentleman, in all gentleness but helpfully, I hope, that that is not a matter for the Chair. Some might think that he is continuing or starting a debate, which is not a matter for a point of order.

Ian Paisley Jnr: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can you confirm that you have received a letter from the hon. Member for Belfast West (Mr Adams) indicating his resignation from the House? Can you indicate that he will not be allowed to breach any of the constitutional requirements that he, like any other Member, must receive office under the Crown before he can leave the House? If that is the case, can you indicate when you will reply to him instructing him of his obligations as a Member of the House?

Mr Speaker: Let me say to the hon. Gentleman, to whom I am grateful for his point of order, that correspondence with the Speaker is private and is not the subject of exchanges on the Floor of the House. What Members might or might not say about their correspondence is a matter for them, but I intend to keep my own counsel. There are procedures to be observed, and observed they must be.

Kevin Brennan: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have learned today that the economy shrank in the last quarter of 2010 and that, even taking the inclement weather into account, growth would have flatlined; that is on top of yesterday's remarks by Sir Richard Lambert of the CBI. Have you received any notification from the Chancellor of the Exchequer of his intention to come to the House to explain what steps he is going to take to deal with this emerging crisis?

Mr Speaker: No, and I think I can recognise an attempt to initiate a debate at this distance.

Firearms (Amendment) Bill

Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)

Thomas Docherty: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to introduce a minimum age for holding a shotgun licence of 14 years.
	The Bill is purposely rather limited in its scope and objectives. It is not about banning recreational shooting or the proper use of shotguns for legitimate rural estate management. Rather, I am seeking to close a loophole in our current firearms legislation-legislation that the Home Affairs Committee, under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), has identified as both complicated and confusing.
	At present there is no minimum age for possessing a shotgun licence. This is at odds with the legislation covering other firearms, where there is a minimum age of 14. According to figures that I obtained from the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), almost 5,000 children in England and Wales possessed a licence to fire a shotgun. Of those 5,000 or so licences, 26 were issued to 10-year-olds, 72 to 11-year- olds, 134 to 12-year-olds and 231 to 13-year-olds. It is unfortunate that neither the Scottish Executive nor the Northern Ireland Executive keeps figures centrally for their devolved areas. However, I am sure we can assume that the figures are proportional to those elsewhere.
	Currently, as the House knows, licences are issued by the chief constable of the police authority for the area in which an applicant resides, although for practical purposes the decision is often delegated to a more junior officer. For the purpose of this debate, it may be easier to refer to the chief constable. The applicant needs only to state their reason for wanting a shotgun licence, and needs to provide no evidence. If a chief constable wants to refuse a licence, the onus is on the chief constable to demonstrate their reasons against granting it. As the report from the Association of Chief Police Officers on the Cumbria shootings spelled out, an application for a licence can be refused only if the police can demonstrate that they believe that the person is a danger to the public, or that the applicant has "no good reason" to have a shotgun, or that the applicant is subject to certain statutory prohibitions.
	So at present chief constables have very little, if any, scope to refuse an application from a 10 or 11-year-old. This is, I believe, a most unsatisfactory situation for our chief constables to find themselves in. As I said at the beginning, the Bill is limited. It does not necessarily preclude the young person from firing a shotgun, because the current legislation merely provides that a young person be supervised by an adult, whether or not that young person possesses a licence. However, the Bill will send a clear and straightforward message that our society is not comfortable with the principle of young children handling lethal weapons.
	I am grateful to the House of Commons Library for providing information on the situation in other countries. For example, in Finland applicants have to be 18, but a 15-year-old can get a permit for hunting or shooting with consent from guardians. In Ireland, New Zealand and Lithuania 16 is the minimum age for possessing a shotgun licence. These are just a few examples to illustrate my case.
	Even the United States, a country known for its liberal or even libertarian views on the control and use of firearms, has recognised there must be some limits and controls. More than half the states-32 now-have set a minimum age for the use of shotguns and other firearms. The majority of these states have set the minimum age at 18. Surely if the United States accepts the need for a minimum age, it is not unreasonable for the House to consider the case for restrictions.
	I am grateful for the cross-party support that I have received for my Bill, and the fact that the Scottish Executive, although they obviously have no legislative competence on the matter, support the principle of a minimum age of 14.
	In conclusion, the Bill seeks merely to tighten the existing legislation, to bring shotguns in line with other comparable legislation at home and overseas, and to ensure that access to dangerous-nay, lethal-weapons is restricted for the very youngest members of our society.
	 Question put and agreed  to .
	 Ordered ,
	That Thomas Docherty, Mr Michael McCann, Mr Jamie Reed, Pete Wishart and Steve Rotheram present the Bill.
	Thomas Docherty accordingly presented the Bill.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 20 January 2012 and to be printed (Bill 135).

European Union Bill
	 — 
	[3rd Allocated Day]

[Relevant document: The Fifteenth Report from the European Scrutiny Committee, The EU Bill: Restrictions on Treaties and Decisions relating to the EU, HC 682.]
	 Further considered in Committee

[Dawn Primarolo  in the Chair]

Clause 6
	 — 
	Decisions requiring approval by Act and by referendum

David Lidington: I beg to move amendment 57, page 4, line 36, at end insert-
	'(2A) A Minister of the Crown may not give a notification, under Article 4 of Protocol (No. 21) on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to TEU and TFEU, which relates to participation by the United Kingdom in a European Public Prosecutor's Office or an extension of the powers of that Office unless-
	(a) the notification has been approved by Act of Parliament, and
	(b) the referendum condition is met.'.

Dawn Primarolo: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
	Amendment 54, page 4, line 36, at end insert-
	'(2A) A Minister of the Crown may not confirm the approval by the United Kingdom of a decision under the provision of Article 25 of TFEU that permits the adoption of provisions to strengthen or add to the rights listed in Article 20(2) of that Treaty (Rights of citizens of the European Union) unless-
	(a) the decision is approved by Act of Parliament, and
	(b) the referendum condition is met.'.
	Government amendment 58.
	Amendment 81, page 4, line 42, at end insert-
	'(aa) a decision under Article 43 of TFEU which would result in the removal of the existing powers of the United Kingdom in relation to nautical limits;'.
	Amendment 36, page 5, line 5, at end insert-
	'(ba) a decision under the provision of Article 81(3) of TFEU (family law) that permits the application of the ordinary legislative procedure in place of a special legislative procedure;'.
	Amendment 37, page 5, line 5, at end insert-
	'(bb) a decision under the provision of Article 82(2)(d) of TFEU (minimum rules on criminal procedure) that permits the identification of further specific aspects of criminal procedure to which directives adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure may relate;'.
	Amendment 38, page 5, line 5, at end insert-
	'(bc) a decision under the provision of Article 83(1) of TFEU that permits the identification of further areas of crime to which directives adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure may relate;'.
	Amendment 100, page 5, line 27, after '(enhanced co-operation)', insert 'except in the field of EU patents'.
	Amendment 13, page 5, line 33, at end insert-
	'(ja) a decision which results in the participation of the United Kingdom in any enhanced co-operation procedure.'.
	Amendment 8, page 5, line 35, at end insert-
	'(l) a decision to extend the use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism to member states other than the Republic of Ireland.'.
	Amendment 79, page 5, line 35, at end insert-
	'(4A) In subsection (1) "decision" includes a further implementation of the decision under Article 122 of TFEU to extend the use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism to any member state other than the Republic of Ireland.'.
	Amendment 40, page 14, line 9 [Schedule 1], at end insert- 'Article 81(3) (family law).'.
	Amendment 55, in clause 7, page 5, leave out lines 44 to 46.

David Lidington: We turn now to decisions on which a referendum would always be required. Decisions taken in accordance with the Treaty provisions listed in clause 6 would always require approval by Act of Parliament and a referendum. One group of decisions covered by clause 6 are the one-way, irreversible decisions that would transfer competence from the United Kingdom to the European Union, including a decision that the UK would participate in a European public prosecutor's office, which can be set up to combat crimes affecting the EU's financial interests. Should the UK ever take part in the European public prosecutor following such a referendum, the decision that this country should take part in any expansion of the powers of that prosecutor is also listed in clause 6 and would therefore also be subject to primary legislation and a referendum.

Emma Reynolds: With regard to Government amendment 57, will the Minister make it clear to the Committee why the Government have singled out the European public prosecutor's office in their opt-in to justice and home affairs and why they are not including other measures in that area on which they have a decision to opt in? The amendment is slightly untidy, so will he clarify that it will amend clause 6(2), as the European public prosecutor's office is mentioned in clause 6(4)(c)?

David Lidington: The wider issue of justice and home affairs opt-ins is the subject of a number of amendments and new clauses that have been selected for debate tomorrow. If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I think that that will be the appropriate time to deal with it. We have decided to single out the European public prosecutor because that was a clear and explicit commitment in the coalition agreement and the coalition programme. The agreement stated:
	"Britain will not participate in the establishment of any European Public Prosecutor."
	In accordance with that policy, we are putting a referendum lock on a decision by any future British Government to join the European public prosecutor and a further lock on the UK taking part in any expansion of that prosecutor's powers.
	I am grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), for Wycombe (Steve Baker), for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Crawley (Henry Smith) for noticing a potential gap in the drafting of the Bill. As drafted, clause 6(4)(c) and (d) might not automatically trigger a referendum in the event that the UK chose to participate in the European public prosecutor after it had already been established. That is because the measure under the United Kingdom's protocol on the area of freedom, security and justice, which would be used to allow us to take part in the European public prosecutor's office or in an expansion of the office's powers in those circumstances, does not have to cite the legal base of article 86 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union.
	Government amendments 57 and 58 respond to the concerns identified and expressed by my hon. Friends in their amendment in order to close that potential loophole. We did not intend to leave any doubt about the matter and, being keen to make that correction, I therefore urge the Committee to approve those Government amendments. These would ensure that a referendum would be required in all cases before the United Kingdom could join the European public prosecutor's office or an extension of its powers, whether the decision was taken before or after the prosecutor had been set up, or before or after the powers had been extended.

John Redwood: I am very grateful for that concession, which improves the Bill. Now that the Minister is in this spirit of concession, does he not understand that most people think that criminal justice is central to their sovereignty in Parliament, and that the same provision should apply to all opt-ins under the criminal justice provisions? Why will he not concede that?

David Lidington: My right hon. Friend makes his point firmly, as I expect him to, but as I said earlier we will have the opportunity to debate justice and home affairs opt-ins in more detail during debates on the clauses that are set down for tomorrow. I look forward to hearing the concerns that he and other Members express on that occasion.
	A number of amendments in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry seek to add a limited number of further JHA articles to either clause 6 or schedule 1, and I say to him and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) that I am well aware of and understand the Committee's concerns about justice and home affairs matters. I share their view that they are matters of political, often of legal and sometimes of constitutional, significance, so I look forward with interest to the arguments that my hon. Friend might put forward later today.
	On those amendments, which will be the subject of debate later today, I signal now that I am confident that I can make a compelling case why those particular articles should not be listed in clause 6 but be left, where they are appropriately dealt with, in clause 9. I shall explain briefly today and, I expect, at greater length tomorrow how that fits into wider JHA issues, as I set out in my written ministerial statement last week.

David Nuttall: I thank the Minister for the courteous and generous way he is piloting the Bill through the House and through its long period in Committee. He will be well aware that I warmly welcome the general principle of the Bill and, indeed, supported it on Second Reading. He will also be aware, however, that I have to be honest and say that it is not the Bill I would have preferred to discuss today. I make no secret of the fact that I think we should be discussing a Bill to give the people of the United Kingdom a referendum on our continued membership of the European Union, but we are where we are.
	I supported the Bill on Second Reading on the basis that I would use every opportunity to try to strengthen and improve it as it progressed through its remaining stages, and I am heartened by the announcements that the Minister has already made this afternoon. He has demonstrated that he feels the Bill is capable of improvement by virtue of his bringing forward the Government's own amendments to it.
	My amendment 54 and consequential amendment 55, as with so many amendments tabled for discussion in Committee, seek to strengthen the Bill by improving the scrutiny that would have to take place should any future transfer of competence occur.
	Under clause 7(2)(a), a Minister may not confirm the approval by the United Kingdom of
	"a decision under the provision of Article 25 of TFEU that permits the adoption of provisions to strengthen or add to the rights listed in Article 20(2) of that Treaty"
	unless
	"the decision is approved by Act of Parliament."
	Amendment 54 would require such a decision to be approved not only by an Act of Parliament, but by the people of the United Kingdom in a referendum. It proposes a new subsection (2A) to clause 6, rather than including the decision in the list of decisions in clause 6(4), because the procedure for the ratification of decisions under article 25 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union is essentially the same as that for decisions under article 42 of the treaty on the European Union, which relates to a common European Union defence policy.
	Under the European Union treaties, all citizens of member states are also citizens of the European Union. As the Committee will be aware, the list in article 20(2) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union is separate from and additional to the list of rights in the European Union's charter of fundamental rights, which was given the status of treaty law by the Lisbon treaty. I will list briefly the European Union citizenship rights set out in article 20(2). The first is the freedom of movement and residence within the European Union. The second is
	"the right to vote and to stand as candidates in elections to the European Parliament"
	and in local government elections in the member state of residence
	"under the same conditions as nationals of that State".
	The third is the right to
	"the protection of the diplomatic and consular authorities of any Member State on the same conditions as the nationals of that State"
	when the EU citizen's member state is not represented in a non-EU country. The fourth is
	"the right to petition the European Parliament, to apply to the European Ombudsman, and to address the institutions and advisory bodies of the Union in any of the Treaty languages and to obtain a reply in the same language."
	A decision to strengthen or add to the rights set out in article 20(2) could be of great importance, and could be wide-ranging. Article 25 of the same treaty appears to place no limit on the sort of rights that may be added. For example, there appears to be nothing to prevent the adoption of provisions that give European Union citizens the right to vote in national elections in member states other than the state of which they are a citizen. Such a new basic right would constitute such a major transfer of power that such moves should be approved by all the people of the United Kingdom in a referendum. By definition, new or extended rights for European Union citizens transfer power from the United Kingdom-the power over whether it accords such rights to the citizens of other European Union member states. The UK would be required to respect those rights for all EU citizens as a matter of treaty obligation, and they would ultimately be enforced by the European Court of Justice, whose rulings are binding and are backed by its power to levy unlimited fines on member states. The new or augmented rights would be enshrined in the EU treaties and could be reversed only by a new, full-blown amending treaty. That would be, for all practical purposes, an irreversible transfer of power of constitutional magnitude, as it would deal with our citizens' rights.
	I believe that amendment 54 is completely within the spirit of the Bill, which is about requiring the consent of the British people to transfers of powers to the EU. It would not infringe the EU treaties or prevent article 25 of the TFEU from being used. It would simply require the British people to approve the transfer of power involved. My consequential amendment 55 would simply remove the current provision from clause 7, as it would no longer be required if it were moved to clause 6 under amendment 54.

Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman referred earlier to consular protection, which, as he knows, has been enjoyed by all citizens of each EU member state for some considerable time. If we have no representation in a particular country, British citizens can go to a French, German or Spanish embassy and receive the same consular protection that they would expect from the UK. Does he really think that that should require a referendum?

David Nuttall: As I understand it, that is already provided for in article 20(2), so there is no need to introduce it again. Amendment 54 would apply only to future extensions of that article.

Chris Bryant: But following the creation of the European External Action Service, there is provision for some extension of that right. That is for obvious reasons, namely that many of the smaller countries in the EU have no diplomatic service or representation in quite a lot of countries. Just as we use the services of the Australians in some cases, for instances in Laos, and the French diplomatic services in other cases, surely it would be wrong to put the need to have a referendum in the way of an extension of that provision for British citizens or any other EU citizens.

David Nuttall: I hear the hon. Gentleman's point, but the difficulty is that article 20(2) covers much more than just that matter. As I said, it covers the likelihood of citizens of other EU states being allowed to vote in our national elections. There is real concern about that, and there would be a drive and desire for citizens of the UK to have their say if the EU ever sought to allow it.

Chris Bryant: When I was Minister for Europe, I probably had more correspondence with British people living in Spain than with those living in any other country in Europe. The best part of 1 million British people now live in Spain, and many of them feel that they need greater protection by the EU-for instance, if their houses are being pulled down because of the changes to housing and coastal laws. They would like to be able to vote in Spanish general elections, so that they can have a voice in Spanish society. Does the hon. Gentleman think it is wrong that they should be allowed that?

David Nuttall: I believe it should be up to the Spanish to decide who should vote in Spanish elections, not the EU, just as I do not want the EU telling our country whether citizens of another EU country should have the right to vote in our national elections.
	I might be reading too much into this, but I wonder whether the reason the current article refers only to European parliamentary elections and local elections is that people in the world of the EU would like national elections done away with. In their world, there would be only regions within the great European Union. Is that why no mention of national elections was made in that article?

Emma Reynolds: Is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that hard-headed, pragmatic pro-Europeans say that we should do away with general elections in member states?

David Nuttall: I have no idea what each individual thinks-that is up to them. All I am saying is that those who promote the EU project, which states the need for ever-closer union- [ Interruption. ] Those who promote the EU project would very much like there to be simply EU elections and local, regional elections, effectively bypassing Members of Parliament. The thrust of the legislation means that that is where we are headed, and it is one of many reasons why I tabled amendments 54 and 55, and I commend them to the Committee.

Denis MacShane: My treat, which I can never find the resources or time to put into effect, is to send the comments that hon. Members on both sides of the House make to our fellow European politicians. I should like President Sarkozy, Chancellor Merkel, Prime Minister Tusk or the representatives of any one of the nine Nordic and Baltic states that were hosted by the Prime Minister at Downing street last week, to read that someone stood up in the Chamber of the House of Commons and said that we are about to abolish national elections. They would realise what a wonderful world the House of Commons can become. To paraphrase Karl Marx on history in the famous opening lines of "The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte", the House of Commons, when it debates the EU, starts as muddle and descends quickly into farce. We are already firmly into those two categories today.
	Clause 6 refers-

Kelvin Hopkins: Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Denis MacShane: Might I just finish my point on clause 6? My hon. Friend and I have had many exchanges here and in the Tea Room over a number of years, and my affection for him grows with each passing moment.
	Government amendment 57 calls for a referendum with reference to an extension of the powers of the European public prosecutor's office, but clause 6(4)(c) already lists the requirement for a referendum when there is any change in the treaty involving the participation of the UK with the EPPO. That is just the technical muddle.
	I remember sitting on the Government Benches, where the hon. Member for Broadmoor is now sitting.

Keith Simpson: Broadland!

Denis MacShane: There are times when the European Union debate makes me think that I am in Broadmoor-in respect of speeches made on both sides of the House, some of which reach the highest clouds of fantasy and invention.
	When I was on the Government Benches, getting the wording right was interesting. Foreign Office officials are brilliant draftspersons, but they are not necessarily quite as focused on the detail or on internal contradictions in legislation, because they do not always produce Bills. Clause 6 and amendment 57, which I assume will go through tonight with a Government majority despite the best efforts of Conservative Back Benchers, actually contradict themselves.

Kelvin Hopkins: The important thing about elections is not just that they are a method for electing people to a Chamber such as this, but that those people have power to exercise on behalf of the people who vote for them. Should we not be careful to ensure that this House, this Parliament and our Government retain power? Otherwise, democracy becomes meaningless and we would just be a decorative part of the constitution instead of an effective part, as Bagehot would say.

Denis MacShane: My hon. Friend is one of the most decorative parts of this House, and I hope that, after the reduction of representation in the wretched Parliamentary Voting and Constituencies Bill becomes law-it will weaken the House of Commons unless the other place defends our constitutional rights-when there will be 50 fewer of us, he is to be found among the survivors.
	This is the eternal argument. The most sovereign person in the world was Robinson Crusoe on his island. No one could tell him what to do, and he did not tell anyone else what to do. Our nation's history is entirely about finding partners and allies and making treaties. I invite hon. Members to go to the National Gallery and look at the depiction of the signing of the treaty of London signed in 1604, which has four British dips and four Spanish dips and you cannot tell the difference between them. That treaty brought to an end 50 years of conflict between Spain and Britain because-

John Redwood: We won.

Denis MacShane: That is a good crack, but I think that the right hon. Gentleman will find that Spanish power messed up the continent for another 100 years until we won again. If the House of Commons only exists to express the sentiment of the football fan that "We won, and they have to lose", Britain will never advance.

Chris Bryant: If the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) is correct that we won in 1604, why did we spend the next 20 years trying to marry off the heir to the British throne to a Spanish infanta?

Denis MacShane: I am glad that we are now marrying off one of our royals to someone who has the attributes of a very normal, pretty Englishwoman. We wish William and "Caterina" every success.
	To return to the Bill and the clause, I campaigned for many years in this House, on an all-party basis, for laws and measures to combat human trafficking. That cannot be done on the basis of a single decision of this House alone. In the last Parliament, it took a great deal of work by hon. Members on both sides of the House to persuade the then Prime Minister to first sign and then ratify the Council of Europe's convention on trafficking. The Home Office's view was that it did not want to be told by anyone-and this was the Council of Europe, not the European Union-what to do or to accept any obligations. Ministers and officials came up with argument after argument about why the Council of Europe convention should not be signed. I am glad to say that parliamentary pressure from both sides wore them down and the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, signed and ratified it. It was an important step forward. As ever, it was not the final solution to that dark and wretched side of globalisation, but it was a step forward.
	Similarly, the European public prosecutor's office might at some stage in the future be of importance to our country, to the Government, whatever their colour, and to the House. At the beginning of the previous decade, we heard exactly the same arguments against the European arrest warrant. People said that it was an intolerable interference in British sovereignty, with Brussels marching in to arrest anyone it wanted. By the time of 7/7, however, when one of the wanted suspects had fled to Rome, where the civil liberties lawyers, the judges, the left and the supporters of Islamism were wrapping their arms around him to protect him, the EAW had-thank goodness-become part of our law, having been adopted by the European Union, and so that gentleman was back on a plane to London before he could say "strong cappuccino".

William Cash: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the case of the person in Leek, Staffordshire whom it was proposed, under an arrest warrant, should be taken over to Italy, and who was convicted in his absence to 15 years, but who, thanks to the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) and the Prime Minister, has been completely exonerated? He was not even within 1,000 miles of where the murder took place.

Denis MacShane: The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right, but we could all list examples in Britain of improper arrests. It does not vitiate the need for international co-operation against criminality-I mentioned trafficking, but there are other examples-if that is what we want. International co-operation on the basis of, "Well, you'll co-operate with us, but we won't co-operate you", will never happen. I am glad that there was not a referendum lock on the EAW, because otherwise that gentleman from 7/7 would still be waiting in Rome until we had had our referendum.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that the example given by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) was invalid, but that his own similar individual example is valid. Why is it valid when it supports his argument, and invalid when it does not?

Denis MacShane: On the contrary, there are anomalies with the EAW. I have cases myself involving the Polish authorities, in particular, sending out generalised arrest warrants for people who have done little more than nick a bike. None the less, a law is a law is a law. If we want criminals whom we want dealt with in Britain to be sent back here, we have to accept that what is sauce for our criminal goose has to be sauce for other criminal gander.

James Clappison: I invite the right hon. Gentleman to contemplate the evidence given to the Home Affairs Committee by an eminent lawyer in the field of extradition about the extent of the problem he has just described: arrest warrants coming from Poland and other eastern European places for trivial offences, resulting in many of those on the receiving end of one being locked up in British prisons and police stations, wasting a considerable amount of time and occupying valuable space.

Mike Gapes: rose-

Denis MacShane: I give way to my hon. Friend.

Mike Gapes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that recently a Romanian national was arrested in east London and taken back to Romania on an extradition warrant issued by the Romanian authorities? This individual had been involved in the most terrible form of trafficking of human beings and criminal activity in Romania.

Denis MacShane: May we bring an end to these individual cases from right hon. and hon. Members?
	I am glad that the "costa del crime" has been shut down thanks to enhanced European co-operation. I put it to hon. Members on both sides that in a few years' time it might be to our country's advantage to have an effective prosecutor's office working to ensure that the people whom we bring to justice can face inquiry and remedy. I accept that the Bill will pass, but I am nervous about saying to our European colleagues, "Forget that idea, because we will have to have a referendum on it first." I do not want to use hyperbole, but were I a trafficker or someone who did not want to be brought to justice on a trans-frontier basis, I would be quite happy to see a referendum take place before effective action could be taken against me.

Ben Gummer: As it happens, the European arrest warrant has recently been of great use to one of my constituents who had suffered a grave injustice in Spain, which is an argument in favour of the European arrest warrant. We have also heard some arguments against it, but these are all arguments that can be put to the British people. We can have a mature debate in front of them. Why does the right hon. Gentleman oppose that?

Denis MacShane: That takes us into a slightly broader aspect of the debate, where there are differences between us. I started my political life campaigning in pubs and elsewhere against the demand, which was very prevalent after my student days, that there should be a referendum on capital punishment. Again and again, the cry is for a referendum, and we heard it in health questions today, when it was asked whether we could have a referendum on NHS reforms. I do not think that any hon. Member on the Government Benches would give a fleeting thought to that proposition, but if a referendum on a public prosecutor's office is good, why is a referendum on something that will impact far more directly on the British people-namely the Government's proposals to change significantly the way that our health service is delivered-not good?

Chris Bryant: Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Ben Gummer: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Denis MacShane: Well, I am tempted to-

William Cash: Sit down?

Denis MacShane: To be told to sit down by the hon. Gentleman, who, to his great credit, has never long warmed a Bench if he could stand up, is undoubtedly a real pleasure to be had from my small contribution to this debate.

John Redwood: The big difference is that the Government's health reforms are reversible if they do not work or if a future Government do not like them, whereas the surrender of power to Europe is irreversible.

Denis MacShane: Again, this shows a failure to understand that if we do not like a treaty, there is an alternative. I have been told over the 16 years in which I have sat in the House that almost any change would undermine Britain. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman famously said that the Amsterdam treaty would mean the abolition of the United Kingdom. Can anybody in the Committee tell me a single thing that was in the Amsterdam treaty?

Chris Bryant: The protocol on broadcasting.  [ Laughter. ]

Denis MacShane: There we are: when we need an anorak, there is always one from Rhondda. I am grateful to my hon. Friend.
	I respect the Member for Europe, for whom there is a great deal of affection among those of us in the House who are first-class Euro-bores. The Member for Europe-[Hon. Members: "Member for Europe?"] I apologise: the Minister for Europe is a sincere and serious chap. I have recently been much involved in the issue of Kosovo. One of our great problems there is that whereas the United Kingdom recognises Kosovo, along with 21 other member states, led by Britain-there is, I hope, not a cigarette paper of difference between those on our Front Bench and those on the Government's on the importance of helping Kosovo find its way to a future-five EU member states do not recognise Kosovo. As a result, we are utterly stymied in so much that we could and should do to help Kosovo find its way towards some stability, and because Kosovo has no stability or sense of security, that is contagious in other countries in the Balkans. There are times when this Government would, if anything, like to exercise a little more authority in Europe, in order to achieve key foreign policy goals.

Jesse Norman: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Denis MacShane: I shall give way for the last time, and that is it.

Jesse Norman: I thank the right hon. Gentleman very much, and I am greatly enjoying his comic turn. On a point of information, is he engaged in a one-man filibuster, or is this a genuine contribution to the argument?

Denis MacShane: If the hon. Gentleman and every other hon. Member had remained seated, rather than jumping up and insisting on making interventions, I would have sat down about 10 minutes ago. [Hon. Members: "No!"] I am hearing cries for me to go on and on-I do not think that anything similar is happening in the other place-but I will sit down in due course.
	I have no intention of filibustering; I have come here to make the point that remains at the heart of the Bill. That is that no Minister of the Crown-whether of this Administration, a Lib Dem Administration or, in four and a half years' time, when my right hon. Friends are on the Government Front Bench, a Labour Administration-is going to sign a either a brand new treaty or a significant amendment that so unacceptably transfers authority and power away from this House and the Government of the nation that that Minister would have to come back here and say, "We have looked at this and we are very uncertain about it. We think it is significant and we are going to give the British people a referendum on it." "Significant" is the key adjective in this regard.
	That shows the intellectual dishonesty at the heart of all these debates. The Bill is being introduced simply because the Conservative part of the Government could not honour its commitment to have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, could not repatriate any powers and could not alter the existing treaties. Because the Conservatives are locked into their coalition agreement with the Lib Dems, the only reflection of five years of consistent, campaigning Euroscepticism they can offer to the British people is this Bill. I accept that it reflects the prevailing mood among the largest single party, the Conservative party. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have campaigned consistently on Eurosceptic themes.

Ben Gummer: rose -

Denis MacShane: I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman will make his points in due course.
	In opposition, it was possible for the Conservatives to campaign as Eurosceptics, but they cannot but govern as Euro-realists. This we have seen in whole range of-

William Cash: rose -

Denis MacShane: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will have a chance to make his point very shortly.
	As Euro-realists, this Government have been-by my standards-responsible and helpful, shovelling out money to Ireland and working with Chancellor Merkel on serious treaty amendments that will increase economic surveillance of all the 27 member states, on foreign policy and on other issues. I really have no huge complaints to make about the Government at all. I say again, however, that it is inconceivable that any Minister of any Government in the future is going to come back from Brussels and say, "I've signed such a bad treaty. I'm not really sure about it. It is so significant in its alteration of the powers between the UK and the rest of the EU that I want it put to a referendum."

William Cash: The right hon. Gentleman is making a big show about all this. First, there was a referendum in 1975 under a Labour Government. Secondly, there was also a promise in the Labour manifesto about a referendum on the constitutional treaty. Thirdly, if the right hon. Gentleman had been here yesterday, he would have heard those on his own Front Bench proposing a mechanism to ensure that, in certain circumstances, there would be a referendum on all matters within the treaties. So, for practical purposes, he needs to ask himself whether the Labour party is now contradicting the position that he is adopting.

Denis MacShane: I will leave that point for my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench. I am not sure whether their new clause has been selected for debate today, but it proposes to set up a broad oversight committee, which might indeed be a rival to the Committee of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). I do not think that the proposal will make much progress, however.
	The worry for me is that, at least among the majority party on the Government Benches, we have a Eurosceptic majority. We have to accept that. There are also many Eurosceptics on these Benches- [ Interruption. ]

Dawn Primarolo: Order. Mr MacShane, could you please turn your phone off? This is the second time that it has rung in the course of your contribution. While I am on my feet, may I ask you to refer to the amendments, and not to be tempted by interventions to reflect on anything that is not within them?

Denis MacShane: I apologise, Ms Primarolo. I thought that the phone was in silent mode, but it was not. I have learned something. At least my tie is sober and silent! I accept that interventions have dragged me here and there, but we are a friendly kind of House when it comes to European debates-to begin with, at least. I have been trying to sit down for about 10 minutes, but hon. Members just will not let me.

The Second Deputy Chairman: Perhaps I can help the right hon. Gentleman to sit down. Has he concluded his remarks? If not, he may continue, but he should not reflect on what I have said.

Denis MacShane: I was concluding my remarks until various Members got up to intervene.
	My conclusion is simply this. There may come a time-not now, I accept-when a majority in this House and a duly elected Government feel that they want to take the lead to alter a European Union treaty-to propose a new one or make amendments to an existing one. They will then find that they are being held back by the tone, if not the strict legal content, of this Bill. This is coming dangerously close to what an Under-Secretary at the Foreign Office, Mr Henry Hopkinson, said about Cyprus in 1956-that it would "never" be free.
	I genuinely worry about the signal we are sending to our EU partners at a time when we all, quite irrespective of our party political positions, need more co-operation and more enforcement in Europe, whether it be on Tunisia, on growth policies or on finding solutions to the problem in Ireland, where, as the Prime Minister rightly pointed out, we export three and a half times more British goods than we do to China. I worry greatly that this Bill, and particularly the new clause on the need for effective prosecution of criminality in Europe, will send out precisely the opposite signals. Our nation might well suffer, not tonight or in the next few weeks or months, but in the future, as a result of this deeply isolationist proposal.

Chris Heaton-Harris: The last time I spoke after the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), I was slightly unkind to him. Even though he has given me lots of material to do the same again, I will not. I was a Member of the European Parliament when he was the Minister for Europe and we would have had many disagreements, but I would like to think that we could at least agree to disagree in a friendly manner. The right hon. Gentleman was definitely treading on thin ice when he spoke about Robinson Crusoe being cut adrift, but it is all welcome for the purposes of debate.
	I wish to make a point about the European public prosecutor, which I am against, and it is one of the reasons why I tabled the amendments. When I was an MEP, there was a great Scottish National party MEP, Sir Neil MacCormick. In the first debate that ever took place on this subject, he reminded me that having a European public prosecutor would mean changing the way we do criminal law in this country-moving away from habeas corpus towards a more Napoleonic code. Perhaps that is worth reflecting on in this place and giving the British people a chance to have a say on it. I very much welcome Government amendments 57 and 58, and I am pretty sure that the great Sir Neil MacCormick would have done so.
	I tried to explain to my constituents at the last general election that I had a bit of experience of European matters and that, given the opportunity, I would try to use that experience in this place. I also explained how the Conservative party would try to stop any future power grab by the European Union, as set out in its manifesto. When this is coupled with my membership of the European Scrutiny Committee, I hope that my constituents in Daventry will forgive me for continually talking in the Committee stages of this Bill. It is a very important Bill which contains a great deal of merit.
	My amendments 36 to 38 simply require approval by an Act of Parliament and a referendum before a United Kingdom Minister can give final agreement in the Council to a proposed justice and home affairs ratchet decision when the UK has already opted into the proposal for that decision. Such proposals are subject to unanimity in the Council.
	Amendment 40 requires a decision under the amending treaty, a decision under article 48(6) of the Treaty on European Union or a 48(7) ratchet decision that abolishes the veto of EU proposals on family law to be approved in a referendum. Family law matters can fall under EU competence, and the veto could be abolished by an article 81(3) ratchet clause. I know that that is highly unlikely, and I know that the EU's ability to become involved in family law has existed for a long time-since long before the Lisbon treaty-but I think that Members on both sides of the Committee can agree among themselves and with our European partners on matters such as the mutual recognition and enforcement between member states of judgments and decisions in extra-judicial cases.
	However, genuine concern is felt by many people, and I am definitely one of them. In December 2005, the European Commission tried to make a case for applying the pre-Lisbon ratchet clause to qualified majority voting in EU proposals concerning maintenance obligations, which are obviously a family law matter. It was knocked back in the Council at that point, but anyone who listens to or reads debates in the European Parliament-as I now do-and anyone who reads statements from European Commissioners will understand that a bit of pressure is beginning to be applied. I should appreciate an assurance from the Minister that he is aware of that pressure and will continue to keep an eye on any challenges that may be forthcoming. I do not intend to press the amendment to a vote.

James Clappison: Amendment 40 is very important, and my hon. Friend is making a very good speech which is clarifying matters. I understand from what he is saying that family law matters are currently subject to unanimity rather than qualified majority voting, and that he is concerned about what is being proposed. He will know that the Commission has a long history of moving from unanimity to qualified majority voting, and seeks to do it on many occasions. Can he confirm that, as this is within the framework of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, the European Court of Justice will have jurisdiction over the family law matters to which he is referring?

Chris Heaton-Harris: I believe that that is the case, although the Minister for Europe may correct me, as he is much better qualified to answer my hon. Friend's question.
	My main amendments are concerned with problems that I have identified in the justice and home affairs ratchet clauses or opt-ins. We saw an example here not long ago. Just after the general election, the United Kingdom had to decide whether to opt into the European investigation order. Many Members considered the way in which the legislation was scrutinised and enacted to be unsatisfactory. Along with others, I tabled an urgent question with the aim of establishing whether we were going to opt in.
	I think that there is a better way of scrutinising important justice and home affairs matters. I appreciate that in that instance the general election and various recesses caused a problem, but nevertheless I am sure that this place can do a great deal better when it comes to scrutiny, and I believe that the Government can do a great deal better when it comes to enactment. I therefore very much welcome last week's written ministerial statement. Someone like me could pick a few holes in it-on dates and who has the first say, for example-but it is a massive step forward and I thank the Minister for it. I also welcome, as I said, the Government amendments in this area.
	The Government have already opted in to the negotiations on the European investigation order, which allowed European police forces to insist that the British police put citizens in the UK under surveillance and grant access to their DNA. I suggest that that is quite a big deal to the United Kingdom. The way in which the EIO was put before the House-eventually, in an oral statement in July-was most unsatisfactory. The intention behind my amendments is to ensure parliamentary scrutiny of such matters.

William Cash: The investigation order has not yet been debated in the European Standing Committee, as far as I am aware, so we should bear it in mind that although the Minister made a statement-on 15 June, I think-it is none the less still subject to scrutiny.

Chris Heaton-Harris: I thank the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee for correcting me. He knows that I am often wrong, so he corrects me quite regularly. I appreciate the help and assistance that he gives me, as a new Member in this place.
	In the simplest terms, on the JHA ratchets, the Government have wisely looked at article 86 of the TFEU and have closed down in the Bill many of the policy areas that could be taken up to European level. Article 86 deals with the European public prosecutor, as I think the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) alluded to earlier. However, it does not pay attention in the same way to the justice and home affairs criminal law ratchets, because those are contained in article 83. Is there a reason for that? Essentially, I am seeking from the Minister an idea of how we will deal in this place with matters similar to the European investigation order when the Bill is enacted.
	The criminal ratchet clauses are often very important, but some, while important in themselves, would not be as important to the British people on the whole. It would be a very daring move for anybody-a Eurosceptic, a pro-European, or any Minister-to recommend such matters for a referendum. I am quite happy to think that we could deal with this by putting before both Houses of Parliament a motion or Bill that could be amended to include a referendum clause, should the need arise. However, we can do justice and home affairs scrutiny a lot better. Although the written ministerial statement goes some way in that regard, could the Minister give us some real-life examples to explain how such matters will be dealt with in future?
	I do not want to detain the Committee further. I have explained the reasons for my amendments on family law-I will not be pressing those to a vote-and on the JHA ratchets, which I hope I will not need to press to a vote. All parties should be able to agree in general terms to better parliamentary scrutiny of justice and home affairs opt-ins-or, indeed, opt-outs. This is the right place for that to be done, and I look forward to the Minister's comments.

Emma Reynolds: It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship as I make my first speech on the European Union Bill, Ms Primarolo. It is also a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris). He and I have something in common, because I, too, worked in the European Parliament for a number of years. He was an MEP for a decade and I congratulate him on his speech today.
	I wish to place on the record my gratitude to the European Scrutiny Committee and congratulate it on several reports on the Bill, particularly the one it published last week. I particularly wish to place on the record my thanks to its Chair, the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), whose eloquence and expertise on these matters is exemplary. The report certainly gave me some work to do this weekend. It kept me awake because it was a riveting read, and it was so enlightening that I shall draw on its infinite wisdom in my contribution this afternoon.
	In his Second Reading speech, the Foreign Secretary was at pains to stress the importance of clause 6 and the referendum triggers on the so-called "passerelle" clauses, as was the Minister for Europe in his letter to his own Back Benchers. If the Government's commitment not to transfer power to the EU is genuine and is a cast-iron guarantee-we have heard that before-and the passerelle clause actually requires unanimous agreement in order to move to qualified majority voting, why do the Government not simply veto any move to QMV? Can the Minister tell the House why it is necessary to make provision in clause 6 for a technical device that the Government have the power to block? Is it because the Government's own Back Benchers do not trust the Government Front-Bench team or, perhaps, some officials in the Foreign Office?
	This matter was considered in the European Scrutiny Committee's report. One of its witnesses, the UK's former permanent representative to the EU, Sir John Grant, confirmed in his evidence that member states rarely agree to passerelles. He said:
	"The point about the passerelles is that-they're significant in a way, of course they are, they're there for a reason-but it's very difficult to use them, whether or not there is a referendum Bill...but the reason passerelles aren't used very much is that everybody's got to agree that some of them are going to be outvoted."
	The Committee concludes that
	"it is in reality unlikely that most of the Treaty provisions which attract a referendum under the Bill will ever successfully be invoked".
	It sounds like the Committee and its experts think that clause 6 is window-dressing, and it certainly seems that way to me.
	As I have said, the Government claim that each and every passerelle clause is within the scope of the Bill, but I understand that that is not the case and I believe that the hon. Member for Daventry was making the same point. Indeed, the Minister for Europe's letter to his own Back Benchers states:
	"To be clear, it is not the exercise of unanimous decision-making that would require a referendum"-
	so far so good-
	"but the shift in any significant area from unanimity to qualified majority voting."
	Can the Minister explain to the House what he means by "significant area"? How will that significance be judged? Is there a test for it? Does this approach not fall short of what the Foreign Secretary promised the House on Second Reading, when he committed that the Bill would cover every possible move to QMV in the treaties?Does the Bill not cover all those areas? If not, why not? I would appreciate the Minister's clarification on that point.
	I also wish to ask the Minister for clarification on the implications of clause 6(4)(j) and whether the enhanced co-operation procedure on the EU patent would trigger an Act of Parliament or a referendum. Labour Members judge that this measure, if successful, would be an extremely important move to help British business protect its intellectual property rights, at least within the 12 member states entering into the enhanced co-operation procedure, as it stands. We would not like to see the negotiations delayed any further on this important matter, so can the Minister tell the House if and how the current negotiations would be affected? For that reason, we have tabled amendment 100. The Minister has said that if it were included, it would put the matter beyond any doubt. I therefore urge that there be a Division on the amendment, so that we can have that guarantee in the Bill.
	There is also a loophole in clause 6 that it is important to underline. The Government state that the aim of the clause 6 is to capture any change from unanimity to QMV, but as outlined by another witness, Professor Dougan, clause 6(4)(j) does not apply to the UK deciding to join an existing enhanced co-operation procedure whose members have already decided to move to QMV. Does the Minister agree that it is illogical not to include such a move that involves a shift from unanimity to QMV? Will he clarify the Government's thinking on the issue? Why does clause 6(4)(j) fail to account for that scenario? Does he agree with the recommendation of the European Scrutiny Committee's report that
	"a decision by the UK to enter enhanced cooperation where the voting procedure has been changed from unanimity to QMV be subject to a referendum lock"?
	Surely that is the logical conclusion to the Government's reasoning.
	Other inconsistencies and elements have been illogically left out of clause 6. Again, the Government claim that clause 6 should include any move to qualified majority voting. The hon. Member for Daventry has pre-empted my speech on this matter, because it is surely a logical conclusion of the Government's argument that decisions by the Government to opt in to the field of justice and home affairs legislation should be included in clause 6. When he was asked about that point on Second Reading, the Foreign Secretary pointed out that there was only a three-month window for member states to opt in to the start of negotiations. That point was well made by the hon. Member for Daventry. However, why not put the opt-ins, when they are decided, to a vote in the House?
	I take into account the Minister's written ministerial statement on this subject, which was made last week. Welcome though its contents are, does it go far enough? Does it allow proper parliamentary sovereignty over those significant decisions? The Irish Government manage to consult their Parliament within the time frame and to have a vote on these issues. Would it not be a good thing for this House to have a greater say?

James Clappison: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. She is making a very good case in a very cogent way. As a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, however, may I gently say to say to her that although I will have certain points to make about the written ministerial statement, it goes much further than anything that was permitted under her party's Government? For 13 years, we had no votes on opt-ins or anything else to do with these matters and, by and large, we had scrutiny without votes at the end of it.

Emma Reynolds: That is certainly true, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that both the Single European Act and the Maastricht treaty involved a much greater transfers of powers than anything we have seen since and the Foreign Secretary voted against a referendum on such matters. Let us talk not only about consistency on this side, but about consistency by those on the Treasury Bench, too.
	The Government have decided to opt in to eight pieces of justice and home affairs legislation since the general election. The hon. Member for Daventry has mentioned one of them-the European investigation order. The Opposition would have liked to have had a say on the Government's decision not to opt in to the EU directive to combat human trafficking. Indeed, we judge the Government's decision not to opt in to be a dereliction of duty as regards combating this modern form of slavery. I imagine that some Back Benchers sitting behind the Minister-as I have said, the hon. Member for Daventry has mentioned this-would have liked more time on the Floor of the House to discuss not only the European investigation order but the other seven measures that the Government opted into.
	Another area that the Government have totally neglected to mention in the Bill is the wholesale transfer of the body of justice and home affairs legislation to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. The decision that the Government have to take in 2014 either to opt in to the body of legislation in its entirety or not to do so was also referred to in the Minister's written ministerial statement last week, but it is not mentioned in the Bill and is surely of equivalent significance to many of the changes in clause 6. In fact, the Conservative party manifesto stated that the Conservatives wanted to repatriate powers in employment and social affairs and criminal justice.
	In his ministerial written statement, the Minister said there would be a vote in the House on the decision in 2014-we welcome that. However, I am sure that some of his Back Benchers will tell him that it is his best chance to repatriate powers in the field of criminal justice. Such a move would be unilateral and could be carried out with relative ease. The Government will not be able to do the same in the field of employment and social affairs without the unanimous agreement of all the other 26 member states. Given that this is the Government's only chance to fulfil that manifesto commitment, are they minded to take up this opportunity? Are not these changes more important than those in clause 6?

William Cash: Perhaps the hon. Lady is getting to this point, but I should like to know whether the Opposition are going to push this issue to a vote, or at least encourage one.

Emma Reynolds: We are not in favour of repatriating power; I am simply pointing out that according to their manifesto, the Conservatives committed to doing so. Far be it from me to intrude on private grievances, but I am simply trying to point out that there may be disagreement on these issues between those on the Government Front and Back Benches.

William Cash: The hon. Lady has been talking with great eloquence about opt-ins and the number of opt-ins that have taken place and she has referred to the excellent amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), which reflect the views of the European Scrutiny Committee. In the light of her eloquence and determination, and the expressions of support she has given to my hon. Friend and therefore to the Committee, I should like to know whether the Opposition would be interested in voting on these matters.

Emma Reynolds: I was simply pointing out inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bill.

Chris Heaton-Harris: I thank the hon. Lady for being so kind to me and I congratulate her on her first contribution from the Front Bench; she is doing a sterling job. I very much appreciate the tone in which she is delivering her words. Given the welcome for last week's written ministerial statement, I wonder whether there is a chance, bizarrely, for some collaborative work to break out across the divide on how we should deal with justice and home affairs opt-ins and opt-outs. Perhaps we could all, together with our Lib Dem colleagues, come to a better arrangement for the future.

Emma Reynolds: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman, who makes the point well. There are elements of agreement regarding last week's written ministerial statement with which we can work. The Opposition favour any greater parliamentary scrutiny of the opt-in decisions that the Government make in this area. So, yes, there is quite a lot of agreement between us.
	The Conservative party has come on a long, tortuous and at times destructive journey regarding the European Union. A Conservative Prime Minister took us into the then European Community and subsequent Conservative Prime Ministers signed up to the Single European Act and the Maastricht treaty-the biggest transfers of power from Westminster to Brussels in our history. There were no referendums on those issues. The Foreign Secretary has been part of that long and tortuous journey. He was not so keen on referendums in the early 1990s, when he and the hon. Member for Stone were on different sides of the argument during the long and heated debate on the Maastricht treaty that went through the night. The Foreign Secretary opposed a referendum on the treaty and the hon. Member for Stone consistently argued for one.

David Lidington: Does the hon. Lady acknowledge that there is an important distinction to be made here? With the UK's accession under Edward Heath and with the treaties she has mentioned that were agreed to by Conservative Governments, those policies were made clear in the Conservatives' manifesto when they sought the people's confidence at a general election. The difference with the Lisbon treaty is that, for the first time, referendums had been promised but were not given by the party that won office at the general election.

Emma Reynolds: I thank the Minister for Europe for that intervention. I will say two things about it. The first is that I do not remember the 1983 Conservative party manifesto. The second is that the Single European Act involved a massive transfer of power with the introduction of the four freedoms-goods, capital, people and services. The Maastricht treaty also involved a massive transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels through the inclusion of justice and home affairs within the competence of the European Union treaties. I would argue that both those treaties were much more significant than the Lisbon treaty. We will not take lessons from a party which has never, within my lifetime, granted a referendum to this country on-

Ian Lucas: Does my hon. Friend remember the 1983 Labour general election manifesto?

Emma Reynolds: I have read it, and it is unforgettable, but perhaps that is not for this debate. We have become more sensible since then.

William Cash: The hon. Lady may not remember the precise terms of the 1983 Labour manifesto, but it was described as
	"the longest suicide note in history".
	On the treaties, the Maastricht treaty indeed represented a massive transfer of powers. As Professor Simon Hix confirmed, in his view it should have been subject to a referendum. There are very few on the Conservative Benches now who do not agree that we were right when we pressed for one at the time. However, the Lisbon treaty contains the ingredients of the Maastricht treaty. That is where the problem lies. A referendum was required on that because of the things that are now entrenched in the Lisbon treaty which come out of Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice, plus all the add-ons that the Front-Bench team of the Labour party in government put through.

Emma Reynolds: I know that the hon. Gentleman is disappointed that back in 1993 he did not manage to win the vote on securing a referendum on the Maastricht treaty. I would like to look forward, rather than look back. I shall continue and conclude my remarks.
	The changes outlined in clause 6 and other parts of the Bill pale into insignificance compared with the wholesale transfers of power in the Maastricht treaty and the Single European Act, as I outlined. In the House, on the Second Reading, both the Foreign Secretary and Minister for Europe reiterated the Government's commitment, as set out in the coalition agreement, not to agree to any transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels for the duration of this Parliament. If the Government are so committed not to transfer power, why do we need the Bill? Is it that their own Back- Benchers do not trust them to keep to the text of the coalition document?
	The Bill is unnecessary. It is a dog's breakfast. It is a political gesture to calm the fears of the Eurosceptics on the Conservative Benches. The Government have failed to achieve their objective.

Tim Farron: I thank the hon. Lady for being so generous. Does she agree that the Bill recognises the mood of the country? I am an enthusiastic supporter of the European Union, but the mood of the country is not the same as mine towards the European Union. Parliament needs to make a statement that guarantees that this place is sovereign, and that the public's power over our membership of the European Union is ultimate and paramount. The compromise in the Bill is surely intended to achieve that confidence among the public and to ensure that we do not wrap ourselves up in so much red tape that we cannot have a meaningful relationship with the European Union.

Emma Reynolds: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution, and I will say two things in response. First, European Union legislation can, by its nature, be deregulatory if it is framed precisely and well. Several pieces of European Union legislation replace 27 sets of national legislation. A number of business organisations recognise that fact and are in favour of it.
	On the hon. Gentleman's wider point, I will say this: I am new to the House, but since last May I have not had a single constituent bring that subject up, either in a surgery or on the doorstep, and I was knocking on doors on Saturday. My constituents are more concerned about their jobs, the trebling of tuition fees and the risks from overhauling the NHS than about technical procedures called passerelles, which, I wager, none of them has heard of.
	In conclusion, the Bill is a political gesture that has not succeeded in calming the Eurosceptic wing of the Conservative party. In fact, it seems to have inflamed the passions of the Eurosceptics on the Benches behind the Minister. I am sure that that will be demonstrated today, as it was yesterday and in previous consideration of the Bill. In the words of the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), the Bill is "shadow-boxing". According to the hon. Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell), it is a "piece of legislative PR". This political device has not only backfired, but resulted in a Bill that is confused, contorted and contradictory.

Priti Patel: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds).
	I rise to speak to amendment 81, which stands in my name, but first I would like to make a wider point. I fundamentally believe that it is a landmark piece of legislation. I have strong and clear views on Europe and on our relationship with it. It is fair to say that since 1972 this country has seen what I would describe as open-door encroachment on our sovereignty and decision making. When I speak to my constituents about all matters related to Europe, and when they raise those with me, one of the fundamental questions they ask is who governs this country. Is it Britain, or Parliament or Europe? I think that the Bill will bring some clarity to some of those questions and issues.

Mike Gapes: Given the tone of the hon. Lady's remarks, should she not be calling for an in/out referendum, and is she not disappointed that the Government have come up with such a weak and ineffective measure?

Priti Patel: I have spoken previously about various clauses in the Bill and have made it abundantly clear that I welcome it. There is no doubt about that. On the hon. Gentleman's point about an in/out referendum, I would like to see a referendum on many, many issues, some of which are in the Bill. I will now speak to one fundamental issue that I think should be in the Bill.

Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady has just said that we should have a referendum on many, many issues. Does that mean many, many referendums, or one referendum on many, many issues? If it is the latter, how would one know on what one was voting yes or no?

Priti Patel: As the debate has proved, many issues to do with the way in which we do business in this country are related to the laws and the decision-making powers of this House and the judgments exercised by Europe, and reflect the views of members of the public. Fundamentally, the British people have a right to vote on where we stand with Europe and on our relationship with Europe. I have been clear on that and consistently maintained that view.

Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady is being generous in giving way, for which I am grateful. She has just used rather Treasury Bench words. That is intended not to promote her, but to denigrate her, I am afraid, because those words seem rather woolly-I am merely recognising my previous sins. Does she mean in or out?

Priti Patel: I would be very happy if the country had a referendum on in or out of Europe, and I have consistently maintained that view. That is my personal view, but it is not the subject of debate on the Bill.
	Amendment 81 would guarantee a referendum in the event that the EU proposed to reduce our powers over our inshore territorial waters up to the 12 nautical mile limit. I therefore ask the Minister and the Committee, through this debate, to put that safeguard in place. The amendment would not solve all the historical problems with the common fisheries policy, but importantly it would protect many of the efforts that this Government and the devolved Administrations are making in our sovereign territorial waters.

Wayne David: On that point about the devolved Administrations, is the hon. Lady as concerned as I am about the evidence that the Scottish Parliament submitted, in which it worries that the devolved dimension is not being considered properly?

Priti Patel: Those issues should be given proper and due consideration.
	As it stands, the Government and the devolved Administrations collectively exercise control and restrictions in our territorial waters up to the 6 nautical mile limit, and access is for British fishermen only. Access to our territorial waters between the 6 and 12 nautical mile limit is restricted to a handful of neighbouring countries. Those arrangements exist only by regulation, so at any time they could be amended by qualified majority voting and Britain could effectively lose control over access to its territorial waters within the 12 nautical mile limit of our shoreline.
	The current regulation, passed in 2002, details the common fisheries policy arrangements for national territorial waters, and it expires at the end of 2012. As we know, the EU has plenty of flexibility to determine the future of our territorial waters, and I fundamentally believe that that is not in our national interest. The European Commission is, however, consulting on the post-2012 arrangements, and my significant concern is that through either that reform or future measures the majority of our European counterparts in the European Parliament or in the Council of Ministers will be able to determine the future of our territorial sovereignty.
	I have been in touch with the Minister for Europe about the issue, and he has very kindly written to me to confirm that currently the Commission has no plans to change the arrangements, but I do not believe that we should leave it to chance, as it is simply not in our national interest to have other EU countries determining the future of access to our territorial waters.

William Cash: Will my hon. Friend bear it in mind that the infamous Merchant Shipping Act was taken through the House in 1988? It was struck down by the House of Lords for not being in compliance, it argued, with the European Communities Act 1972. I do not want to trespass too much on her speech, but I think she may appreciate that she is in what I would describe as extremely sensitive and, in my view, very sensible waters.

Priti Patel: I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. There is no doubt that these are sensitive issues.
	The Bill is significant and designed to protect Britain's interest, and now and in future we must think about the safeguarding of our territorial waters. We know about the state of fishing in this country, and I seek from the Minister an assurance that we will not concede more powers but consider the implications when changes come to the fore affecting our sovereignty and decision making in this House.
	I shall touch on a couple of other issues. During the debate a fortnight ago on clause 8, the Minister for Europe, when challenged at length by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and others, gave a very strong reassurance that this Parliament is sovereign on all matters. On this narrow issue regarding the common fisheries policy, however, my amendment would allow Parliament to exercise its constitutional power and disapply EU law that in my view is clearly not in our national interests.
	As my hon. Friend says, these are sensitive issues, and I am not advocating a bust-up with Europe over them, but the amendment is about asserting our parliamentary sovereignty, on which many Members will agree. I seek the Minister's assurance that the Government are listening to the points that I have made. To summarise, I hope that they will safeguard the powers that we have over our territorial waters and that they are prepared, come what may, to defend the country's interests on this issue.

Chris Bryant: I congratulate the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) on her speech, but it exemplified the fundamental problem that I have with clause 6 and, for that matter, schedule 1. The Euroscepticism at the heart of the clause is a classic example of our exaggerated understanding of our own significance-in particular the significance of Britain and of our parliamentary tradition. That has been exemplified in many speeches this afternoon.
	I always think it is ironic when people inveigh against other Europeans, often misquoting John Bright to say that this Parliament is the mother of all Parliaments, when he actually referred to England as the mother of all Parliaments. It is particularly ironic when people then refer to the first summoning of commoners to a royal Parliament-Parliament is of course a French word, not an English word-by Simon de Montfort. They quite often forget that he was in fact a Frenchman, and a profoundly anti-Semitic one at that. Incidentally, we only know the names of those who attended the 1258 Parliament because they had their expenses paid.

William Cash: We are enjoying the hon. Gentleman's speech, but I thought I would mention that although he is right about what John Bright said-I have just finished writing a book about him-John Bright was defending democracy. Given the problem of the democratic deficit that we so often have, he would have been appalled at clause 18 and absolutely appalled at the manner in which power has been accumulated and moved away from the people of this country, particularly those who are less well off.

Chris Bryant: I think that John Bright would have been appalled by nearly every economic decision that has been taken by the coalition Government since they came to power, so I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is on good territory in summoning him up in support.
	I also point out that the first royal to build on this site was King Canute, who, of course, was Danish. We must therefore take a less effortlessly superior approach to the European Union in our discussions.

Nigel Dodds: The hon. Gentleman said that Euroscepticism lies at the heart of the Bill. However, he will have heard the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), who is ardently pro-European, also supporting the Bill. What is the hon. Gentleman's take on that?

Chris Bryant: The attitude of the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) is rather different from that before the election, as is that of the Liberal Democrat party. That will not surprise many Conservative or Labour Members. The hon. Gentleman seemed to suggest that a vast army of people are constantly campaigning on Europe and our relationship with the European Union. In my time in this House, which is coming up to 10 years, I think that I have received four letters from my constituents about our relationship with the European Union. I have received quite a lot of letters from other people's constituents, but remarkably few from my own. I agree completely with the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) about the failure in the way in which we scrutinise the mandate that Ministers think they are taking to meetings of the Council of Ministers and the legislation that comes from the European Union. I have made that point many times to the House.

Wayne David: My hon. Friend is making an important point about scrutiny, but does he agree that it is reprehensible that we did not have a statement and a debate in the House before the last European Council, and possibly the one before that?

Chris Bryant: I do. It is unfortunate that the Leader of the House has adopted the approach of insisting that pre-Council debates have to be provided for by the Backbench Business Committee from its allocation. Those debates are about the Government's mandate, and they should be in Government time. I hope that at some point the Leader of the House will change his position on that. We may well not need a full day's debate-two and a half hours might be sufficient. Having participated in nearly every one of them since 2001, along with my hon. Friend and neighbour from the south Wales valleys, I can fairly safely predict who will take part in them. I can pretty much guess exactly what they will say, as quite a few of us have single transferrable speeches.
	I wish to refer specifically to some of the amendments in this group, and my points will be made against the background of my belief that the whole of clause 6 is nonsense. It will harm the power of the British Government to negotiate on behalf of the British people and advance the British interest. It will make Parliament look like a body that is not genuinely interested in significant economic or trade advances. To Indian, Chinese, Russian, Brazilian and Mexican potential counterparts, we will look like the country that is standing in the way of the means of enhancing trade with their economies. I believe that that is a mistake.
	The hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) tabled amendment 54 and referred to it earlier. As he knows, it would ensure that there could be no extension of the rights afforded to members of the EU by virtue of article 25 of the TFEU, which is related to article 20(2). I say to him that in the middle of the general election campaign earlier this year, as Europe Minister, I had to go to a meeting-I cannot remember whether it was in Brussels or Luxembourg-to agree to the paper on the founding of the European External Action Service that Baroness Ashton had brought forward as High Representative. Many member states were keen for the paper to contain specific provision for consular services, because as I said earlier, many of the smaller countries in the EU have no representation in many of the 190 or so countries in the world. They frequently use the consular services of other EU member states, and most of the larger member states, such as France, Germany, Italy, Spain and ourselves, are perfectly happy to extend the hand of friendship in that way. Sometimes it is paid for by the country concerned and sometimes it is not, but there is give and take between different member states, so we are perfectly happy for that arrangement to exist.

David Nuttall: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that such a give-and-take arrangement would be perfectly possible even without the existence of the EU? It would also be possible for countries outside the EU to make such an arrangement.

Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, of course. I referred earlier to the fact that we have no representation in Laos. The Australians use our old embassy and residence-I am not sure whether they have bought them now-and provide consular support to Brits who get into trouble in Laos. Indeed, last year I had to visit Vientiane to try to sign a prisoner transfer agreement with Laos. We were eventually successful, and a couple of people have come back to the UK and are now serving their sentences in British jails.
	The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we would not have to invent the EU for that, but there are different expectations of consular services in each member state. When we had the ash cloud during the general election campaign, British newspapers were just about the only ones in the world to campaign for the Government to intervene. They wanted the Government to bring British nationals back to the UK, but French newspapers, for example, thought that getting French nationals back was entirely the responsibility of the French people and their airlines, travel agents and insurers. As more people across the EU exercise their right to the freedom of travel within it, citizens' expectation of their consular rights will change.
	I remember talking to my German counterpart. He said that he expected to close possibly half of all German embassies and consular services around the world over the next five years. Other member states may well do the same. There might come a point when there is an enhanced desire for a shared EU consular service around the world, but I was keen in the negotiations with him to ensure that Britain did not sign up to something that had not gone through a full process of consultation in each member state.
	I was also keen to say that the main actions of the EAS should be far more concerned with extending our influence with the BRIC economies, ensuring that we had a shared attitude to the middle east and Russia, and ensuring that we enhanced our action in the Balkans to protect our security, rather than with matters such as consular services, which could involve significant additional costs. Obviously, if the EU acts to introduce its own consular services, the danger is that a significant amount of the cost will be borne by the UK.
	I think the Minister would be happy with the agreement that I eventually signed at that time. He is studiously ignoring me and not listening, but I think he, too, would have been happy to sign up to that agreement, notwithstanding the fact that the Conservatives did not originally want the EAS to come into existence because they were opposed to the Lisbon treaty- [ Interruption. ] I think the Minister is nodding-certainly with his eyes if not his whole head-but without being contradicted, I will assume that he would have been happy.
	Under amendment 54 tabled by the hon. Member for Bury North, that agreement would have required a referendum, but that would have been a mistake. It was perfectly possible to achieve the outcome that the UK wanted-namely, that the EU should not be extended to provide consular services, except in the way that is already laid down in unanimously endorsed treaties-and consequently, amendment 54 would have limited the Government's power to negotiate.
	King Canute was trying to prove to his consiliare that he could not hold back the waters, but the Bill is like the King Canute of myth-the one who actually tried to hold back the waters. However, in seeking to create a bulwark, there is a danger that the Government have so limited Ministers in what they can give away that they will be unable to achieve anything on behalf of the British interest in other matters. In the long term, and indeed quite possibly in the short term, that will lead to significant dangers for us.
	In particular, amendment 13 is misguided because it applies to the whole of enhanced co-operation, which would mean that Britain would never be able to sign up to an existing area of enhanced co-operation or initiate a new area of enhanced co-operation. Enhanced co-operation is an entirely voluntary process, so I cannot see how it could possibly be in the British interest to put such a dramatic brake on the power of the British Government to enhance their co-operation in a particular area.
	Amendment 8, which refers to the European financial stability mechanism, says that it is all right to extend it to Ireland but not to any other country. That misses the point. If it is right to be able to extend it to Ireland without a referendum-I presume that the argument would be that it is in our direct economic interest because of our historic ties with Ireland-why would it not be the same if we obtained direct economic benefits from ensuring that the Spanish, Portuguese or French economies do not collapse? Why should that require a referendum, whereas the situation in Ireland does not?

William Cash: The hon. Gentleman refers to an amendment that I hope to address shortly. Part of my argument will be that that financial mechanism is unlawful. It was entered into by a former Chancellor of the Exchequer and endorsed by the coalition Government in circumstances that I shall describe. It is also still subject to scrutiny by the European Scrutiny Committee.

Chris Bryant: I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman's arguments. However, I do not understand why it is okay to support Ireland without a referendum, but impossible to provide such support to another country without a referendum.

Stephen Gilbert: rose -

Chris Bryant: I shall give way to the new Liberal Democrat.

Stephen Gilbert: I am grateful for the old hon. Gentleman's time and patience in giving way.
	Is not a further problem that, in a time of crisis, quick action might be required, and a referendum lock could mean that the problem got a lot worse before action could be taken?

Chris Bryant: Indeed. Obviously, a referendum would also incur significant costs. The Government are trying to argue that holding the alternative vote referendum on any day other than 5 May this year would cost some £30 million. I presume that any referendum under the amendment would also cost some £30 million, and I think that that is inappropriate. The clause refers to "a common EU defence", and although I do not want to hand over the setting up of a standing army to the European Union, I acknowledge that there is already a European army, because there are troops from member states acting in Kosovo-and they have done so in Bosnia-as well as Swiss troops under an EU banner. I am reluctant to say that a referendum would be needed on any aspect of a common defence policy, because that would be a mistake in our national security.

William Cash: The hon. Gentleman referred to the cost of a referendum, but my amendment provides that a referendum would be held on the mechanism if the decision involved £5 billion or more. That is a vast amount, and that is why it should not go off to Spain or Portugal. I shall explain why if I get the chance to speak.

Chris Bryant: I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman's arguments.
	My final point is that my anxiety about the drafting of this Bill, and in particular this clause and its attendant schedule, is that it is a lawyers' paradise. There will be constant judicial review of decisions made by Ministers. For instance, in the case of the agreement on the external action service, the eventual format would have been agreed by a Minister from any political party in this House, but it could well be subject to judicial review under the amendment. It is also true of many other elements of the clause, and it means that Ministers' actions at meetings in Europe will constantly be subject to judicial review. Rather than increasing the power of Parliament, that will actually increase the power of the judges in this country, which I consider to be a very big mistake.

Wayne David: My hon. Friend makes an important point, but is he aware that the European Scrutiny Committee, when considering the issue of judicial review, concluded that the clause, which has been projected by the Government as an apparent safeguard, was an illusory protection, because, in its view, a decision on a referendum would be a political decision and therefore not subject to judicial review?

Chris Bryant: Indeed, I have read the Committee's report. I thought it was interesting, not least because the Committee includes significant Eurosceptics on both sides of the House. Much as I admire and respect-and almost adore-the Minister for Europe, I fear that the Bill is a complete and utter chimera. It does not do what it seeks to do, it will not do what many hon. Members on the Government Back Benches hope it will do, and in the end, it will damage the country's interests.

Neil Carmichael: It is a great honour to follow so many excellent speeches, including, obviously, those from the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) and especially-to be honest-the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), the style and structure, if not always the content, of whose speech were particularly impressive. It was absolutely first class-except in content.
	I want to talk first about the general purpose of the Bill to remind us what we are trying to do, which is to restore the trust between the electors and any Government over their relationship with the European Union. It is really important to restate that, because we can get so confused about the detail, as I have noticed during today's and yesterday's debates It is a matter of restoring trust. The second important thing about the Bill is that it is all about ensuring we have clear decisions that can, and should, be made by a referendum where appropriate.
	We are arguing not so much about the useful lists in the Bill, but about some of the areas that might require more clarification. My key point is that the Bill addresses the transfer of power and competence: it is neither a retrospective measure on things we might not necessarily agree with nor an opportunity to tear up things already in place. We have to understand that and the Bill's limitations. Of course, its value lies in the fact that it ensures that, from now on, we as a country will have a clear capacity to decide whether we want powers and competences transferred. We have to get that clearly understood during these discussions.

Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman gets to the heart of the Bill. It strikes me that a theoretical key test for the Bill-I would like him to apply his mind to this-is whether, had it been passed in 1996, the previous Labour Government would have had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. Had it been law, would it have guaranteed a referendum? I have the greatest doubt, given the composition of the Commons at the time.

Neil Carmichael: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for that helpful intervention, to which I will give an emphatic answer: yes, we would have had to have a referendum to ratify the treaty of Lisbon. That is the whole point of the Bill: to prevent such decisions-decisions such as the one by the previous Government not to have a referendum on such an important measure-from ever being made again. So the answer is yes, absolutely, and quite rightly so. The hon. Gentleman's question is a good one-and my answer is good too.

Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way again. I participated in the debate on the Lisbon treaty and I voted for a referendum, but I had no doubt in my mind that whatever was in the three parties' manifestos, there was a majority in this House against having one. That majority was so strong that it would have simply repealed a Bill such as this, and therefore it would not have applied.

Neil Carmichael: I really cannot imagine a Government repealing such a Bill-or Act, as it would be-in order to deny the country a referendum. That would be a recipe for attracting an incredible amount of unpopularity, because nobody would trust such a Government ever again. They would have to repeal such an Act in order not to consult the people, which is a highly improbable course of action-certainly by a Conservative Government and even, I would suggest, a Labour Government-so the hon. Gentleman should not worry about that. When this Bill is passed, it is likely to be in place for generations to come, because it will act as a powerful bulwark against the very machinations to which he has referred.

Mike Gapes: Does the hon. Gentleman believe in parliamentary democracy, or does he think that referendums should be the way we govern our country?

Neil Carmichael: Oh, I believe in parliamentary democracy. I made that clear when we discussed clause 18. I pointed out just how important it is to recognise that we are in the European Union because of an Act of Parliament. I stand by that, because I think it is vital. The Bill does not seek to undermine parliamentary power or parliamentary sovereignty, however we want to define it; it would simply ensure that we consulted the people over such major decisions as, for example, extending the European Union's power over us.

Mike Gapes: If the hon. Gentleman believes in parliamentary democracy as strongly as he says he does, how on earth can he say that the Bill would act as a bulwark for generations to come? Surely a House of Commons of a different composition could and should have the right to repeal any Act with which it disagrees. The Bill would not act as a bulwark, because if the people elected a different Parliament, that Parliament should have the right to make such decisions, rather than have them made through an ephemeral referendum, held on one particular day, which is then apparently binding for generations.

Neil Carmichael: rose-

The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman responds, may I gently remind him that this is not a Second Reading debate about the entire Bill? We are discussing specific amendments to clause 6, to which I am sure he is about to return, as he said he would.

Neil Carmichael: You are absolutely right, Ms Primarolo. I have been taken down this track by others. I am very keen to answer any questions, because it is important that questions are answered-I would not want to be accused of ignoring them-so I am going to respond quickly to that one. I did not say that the Bill could not be repealed; I simply said that it would not be repealed, because no Government in their right mind would be keen to deny a referendum in that way.
	The Bill will strengthen Britain's negotiating position, because it will make sure-

The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Mr Carmichael, I would like you to refer to the amendments. You have been speaking for some time now, and you keep saying that you are coming to the amendments. I would now like you to talk about them and not the general principles of the Bill.

Neil Carmichael: Thank you very much, Ms Primarolo. The problem is that I keep on getting interrupted.
	I have four amendments that I want to talk about, on three subjects. They are linked to what I was saying before, because there are key themes that emerge, and I would like briefly to canter through them. I want first to talk about amendments 100 and 13, which in many ways are similar, because they are about enhanced co-operation. I said in my opening remarks that it was important to talk about the fact that the Bill was all about transferring power and competences and ensuring that we had approval for that. Enhanced co-operation is not necessarily that, however; it involves co-operation between countries, although not necessary all EU countries. That is the nature of enhanced co-operation, but it also requires unanimity. We have to ask what would happen if we ever moved away from unanimity towards qualified majority voting, however, because that would be a different matter. While the process is simply a matter of nation states co-operating to implement or enhance a policy, it is perfectly acceptable. That is why I do not think it wise to accept amendments 100 and 13, and I suggest that the Minister recommend that the Committee reject them. That was the point I was trying to make about the importance of understanding what we are talking about, which is power and competence.

Chris Bryant: I think the hon. Gentleman is disagreeing with himself. If he supports amendment 13, he surely cannot support amendment 100, and vice versa. It is a matter of quid pro quo, or perhaps quid pro euro.

Neil Carmichael: I am sorry if I did not make myself clear enough: I do not support either amendment.

Chris Bryant: But amendment 100 removes some elements from the Bill, while amendment 13 includes some, so it must be either A or B.

Neil Carmichael: My position is that neither of them needs to be supported. I believe that the present situation is perfectly acceptable, and we need to concentrate on the question of power and competence.
	I turn now to the European financial stabilisation mechanisms, which are also very important. The critical point is that we are not in the euro, and that ECOFIN makes the decisions through the qualified majority voting procedure, so any attempt to make changes in that regard would not necessarily have the desired effect. We have no plans to join the euro. Amendment 8 would be necessary only if we decided to join it, which we certainly do not intend to do. I might add that this legislation will make it a necessity, for the first time, to have a referendum before we are able to join the euro. That is really useful.

William Cash: My hon. Friend is talking about my amendment, but I am afraid that he really does not seem to understand what it says. I say that with great respect. It has nothing to do with the euro; it relates to a financial mechanism that was brought in by the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer on 9 May last year and endorsed by our own Government. I can assure him that the amendment has nothing to do with the euro, so he can relax.

Neil Carmichael: But it has got something to do with ECOFIN and with our interest in ensuring that the euro remains strong, because we must remember that 50% of our trade is with the euro area. That is not to say that we should join the euro; we should not. I am simply reflecting our economic position.

Chris Bryant: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's last point about ensuring that the euro is strong; otherwise, there could be enormous impacts on the UK economy, not least because we are, in many regards, the banker for the rest of Europe. However, I think he is wrong to say that clause 6 means that a future Government could not join the euro without holding a referendum. All that a future Government would have to do would be to pass an Act of Parliament saying that, notwithstanding the provisions in this Bill, we were none the less going to join the euro.

Neil Carmichael: I anticipated that point, which is why I made so much effort in response to the interventions by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes). I just do not believe that any Government would repeal this legislation, because it would be suicidal to do so. I am therefore absolutely confident that the provisions in the Bill will be implemented, because no Government would ever decide to go against public opinion so flagrantly. That would be tantamount to postponing a general election for years and years. It would simply not be an acceptable step.
	I come now to amendment 81, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel). The first thing to say about the common fisheries policy is that it does not really work very well. We want to find ways to protect fish and fishermen, but the CFP is not an effective tool. Let me say a few words about it. The CFP was introduced to this country in the early '80s after the 10-year moratorium agreed and negotiated under the original Act of Parliament that brought Britain into the European Union in the first place. It was the late Lord Walker who, as the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food negotiated it in the early 1980s. Our Margaret Thatcher, the Prime Minister of the day, pointed out, as I saw on a memorandum released under the 30-year rule, that "these are our fish" and so forth. There was a lively debate about how the CFP was constructed.
	We cannot be retrospective about this issue, however. What we must do instead is make sure that an empowered British Government demand the reform of the CFP. Having a referendum on it now will not be effective. A ruthless approach to reforming the CFP so that it reflects the interests of Britain, the interests of fishermen and, indeed, the interests of fish is the most urgent and necessary requirement. I do not think that amendment 81 is particularly helpful, although I recognise and understand that all the amendments I have mentioned are in this grey area, where some clarification is required.
	The Bill helps us in many ways; so, too, do the explanatory notes. We should rely on the list set out in schedule 1 and on the details of clause 6, as these provisions set out the substantive issues that we need to debate-and the British public will expect us to vote on them, as these are the areas that have been neglected in the past, as a result of which we have lost the trust of British people.
	In summary, it is critical to remember that the Bill is about having referendums on the transfer of power and competence. It is not about tinkering with policy, which is the job of Ministers in the various Councils in the European Union. It is the job of this Parliament to secure and protect the capacity of the British people to be able to say no to a transfer of power from Britain to Europe. I believe that that is an acceptable position, and it is the right one for us to support. It is, I think, captured very well in the Bill.

Several hon. Members: rose -

The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Before we proceed, I want to say to Members that given the breadth of the debate on this group of amendments, I am not minded, under the Standing Orders, to take a clause stand part debate. I hope that hon. Members will bear that in mind when they make their contributions-although those who have already spoken do not appear to have done so.

Mike Gapes: Thank you, Ms Primarolo. I take it, then, that if I widen my remarks, I will remain in order-subject, of course, to the occupant of the Chair.
	I begin by following up a comment of the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) when he said that the former Prime Minister had said, "They are our fish". One thing about fish is that they do not stay in one place; they can move. If they do not move, they may be over-fished, and there may be a need to have some kind of collective policy to protect "our fish". It is very easy to say that these are "our fish", but the fish might swim away and not come back another day.

William Cash: When fish are thrown overboard, they are dead; then they do tend to stay where they are.

Mike Gapes: That is very true. The hon. Gentleman should therefore welcome the fact that I am a signatory to an early-day motion on this very issue, which was tabled recently by one of his colleagues.

John Redwood: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that signing an early-day motion never succeeds in doing what we wish. Does he have any better ideas for saving our fish? I am with him in wanting to do so.

Mike Gapes: We need a general approach that recognises that the planet's resources are finite, so we need to try our best to conserve them. In saying that, however, I am sure that I am moving well away from a clause stand part debate or indeed from a debate on any of the amendments to clause 6.
	The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), who is no longer in his place, tried to explain why the Liberal Democrats support the Bill and clause 6 in particular. I was struck by the fact that the real reason for that support was not explained. The real reason lies in the fact that a party that is allegedly pro-European-and whose Chief Secretary to the Treasury used to work for the European Movement-has become very European in the sense of taking on the Stockholm syndrome.
	The Liberal Democrats have been captured by their partners to such an extent that they have signed up to making a gesture towards the Eurosceptics, giving the impression to the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) and others who would rather have an in/out referendum-she said as much in response to an intervention-that the proposals before us are highly significant. I suspect that, in many respects, they are not significant, but if they were, and if many referendums were to be triggered in respect of the list of items set out in the Bill, and particularly those in the amendments in the group, the cost of having them would be enormous. I refer not just to the costs of running the referendums, but to the costs of the litigation and judicial reviews that would be incurred-as usual, it would be the lawyers, not the British people, who reaped the financial benefit out of the provisions. We would simply have to pay for the processes brought about by these measures being incorporated into the Bill.
	The hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, and I had an exchange about these issues on Second Reading. He seemed to agree that there are dangers in bringing about a large amount of litigation and in conferring extra powers on the courts, taking them away from our parliamentary democracy. What we face today is the potential for this to become a dog's breakfast and a lawyers' paradise.
	Amendment 8, tabled by the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, deals with the European financial stability mechanism. This would not only be costly; it would not be in this country's national interest. As the hon. Member for Stroud pointed out, more than half our trade-I think it is 60%-is with our fellow EU member states. We therefore have a national interest in the success of the euro; we have a national interest in growth in the German, French, Danish, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese economies, for example; and we have a national interest in the prosperity of the European region.
	It follows that measures will be required to stabilise the financial institutions in the EU, to stop the collapse of banks, to deal with a crisis such as we have seen in Greece, and to deal with the change in the Irish Government that is likely to happen in the next few weeks or perhaps to respond to the welcome return to government of a man who was a Finance Minister under the excellent Labour Government in Ireland, Ruairi Quinn. In light of that, it will be in our national interests to assist the stability and success of the other European economies. Amendment 8 should be opposed vigorously, because it is not in the interests of this country.

William Cash: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I tabled amendment 8. He has described the apparent tremendous advantages of the eurozone to us, and indeed the Government sometimes say much the same. The problem is that as a result of the failures of European economic governance and the failure to repatriate the regulations that are imposed, there is no growth in the EU as a whole. We are in the process of being enmeshed in an imploding European Union. So I do not entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman, although the reasons for my amendment are not directly connected with that.

Mike Gapes: The hon. Gentleman and I have been debating these issues for nearly 20 years. We have never agreed on matters relating to the European Union, and I do not think that we are going to do so now.
	I do not believe that it will benefit our country if the European Union and the European economies implode, as the hon. Gentleman seems to wish them to do. Certainly there are problems in some-not all-European Union economies, and some, including the German economy, are growing quite rapidly. At the same time, the world's economic centres are shifting, overwhelmingly to Asia but also to other parts of the world, and as a result we as Europeans will face a very difficult period in the coming years and decades. We need to think carefully about what will happen if the British economy is speculated against in the next 10, 15 or 20 years, and-given that the coalition Government are presiding over a return to recession-about what will happen to the long-term future of the economy if, as the hon. Gentleman wishes, the European economies fail and the European Union implodes.

John Redwood: I certainly do not want those economies to fail. However, if, according to the hon. Gentleman's analysis, it is right to involve ourselves in economic governance and in mutual subsidies to protect our trade in physical goods with euroland, should we involve ourselves in the same way with the rest of the English-speaking world? Should we aim for stronger economic governance and more transfer of subsidies to protect our extremely important trade in services, most of which takes place outside Europe?

Mike Gapes: Mr Caton-

Martin Caton: Order. I am advised that that question is not strictly relevant to clause 6, so I invite the hon. Gentleman to proceed with his speech.

Mike Gapes: I was about to seek your advice, Mr Caton. I would love to become involved in a debate on the merits of European co-operation and a new Bretton Woods, and numerous other such issues, but I do not think that they are covered by clause 6.
	The questions with which the Bill confronts us are "Is it necessary?", "Does it do what it says on the tin?", and "What will be the effects of it and, in particular, of the amendments and clause 6 if they become law?" In my opinion, either this is a recipe for litigation and a lawyers' paradise, as others have said both on Second Reading and today, or it is irrelevant. Indeed, it may be both: it may be irrelevant in essence, but may none the less serve as a mechanism enabling people to opt for judicial reviews and litigation when referendums are not proposed on certain aspects of decisions made in the European Union and the Council of Ministers.
	We are experiencing a difficult period in this country. Very few politicians have had the courage to stand up to the Murdoch press and the Eurosceptic media, and the capitulation of the Liberal Democrats over the last few months, as they have changed their previous approach to the one to which they have signed up in the coalition, further weakens the voice of pro-European people in the country.

Stephen Gilbert: I note the accusation of Stockholm syndrome, but I suspect that the hon. Gentleman is suffering from amnesia. The Liberal Democrat manifesto was clear: it said that there would be a referendum
	"the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU."
	The coalition is committed to ensuring that that does not happen.

Mike Gapes: Perhaps when he makes his own speech the hon. Gentleman will be able to clarify whether the Liberal Democrats are still in favour of a "big bang referendum", as was suggested on some occasions, whether-as happened with the Lisbon treaty-they will vote in three separate ways on any of the issues that arise from clause 6, and whether the Liberal Democrats in the other place will vote in line with their Front-Bench colleagues here or will also be split in three directions.
	I believe that the measures before us are not necessary and should be rejected. I shall vote against clause 6 and the amendments concerning, in particular, the European financial stability mechanism, which I think would be positively damaging to the future of our country.

William Cash: Excellent amendments have been tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), for Witham (Priti Patel) and for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), and perhaps by others whom I have omitted to mention. There are quite a few amendments here which deal with matters raised by the European Scrutiny Committee, and which relate in particular to gaps-as we described them in our report-in the control mechanisms of part 1. Those matters, which have been discussed quite extensively, involve extensions of European Union competence in criminal law and procedure and in family law, opt-in decisions, and enhanced co-operation in internal passerelles. The amendments deal comprehensively with those issues, and in doing so demonstrate their necessity.
	The proposal relating to criminal procedure has been raised by the European Scrutiny Committee in the past. In particular, the Committee has raised the issue of serious crime with a cross-border dimension. Despite denials over the past decade or so that there would be any serious engagement in the field of criminal law, there has been an increasing encroachment on it. There are serious problems, which are often procedural. We should also consider the manner in which criminal justice is activated and operated in other member states. We do not want to assume that everything that we do is perfect; indeed, we have plenty of evidence that it is not. However, there are certain basic principles that go to the heart of the manner in which trial by jury operates and the manner in which people are arrested. I could continue at great length.

James Clappison: My hon. Friend is making an extremely powerful speech about a very important point. He has referred to the rationale behind the proposals from the European Union, and has cited serious crime with a cross-border dimension. Can he confirm that when jurisdiction is given to the European Union through an opt-in, it applies not just to cross-border crime but to all criminal law, and brings all the criminal law in this country within the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and future proposals from the European Commission?
	I do not wish to use the word "bogus" or the word "misleading", but the European Union's rationale is apt to mislead. The creation of a common European criminal justice system is profoundly significant.

William Cash: Indeed. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who, as a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, played an important role in the preparation of its report. As I am sure he will speak in the debate, and given his expertise as a member of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, I shall restrict my own remarks, and leave it to him to deal with these questions in his own time and his own way.
	I simply make the point that these are well-founded concerns, and I can think of no reason on earth why the Minister would not want to accept these amendments. Perhaps he will, but while the Government have had regard to what the European Scrutiny Committee has said in a report that has been universally welcomed-by both Front-Bench teams and by all those with the competence to understand these matters-they have tended to ignore that almost entirely in considering our recommendations. I shall return to that issue later, but not today.
	I turn to the reasons that we gave in the European Scrutiny Committee report regarding questions of criminal law:
	"To be consistent with the extension of shared competence under clause 4"-
	we debated that yesterday-
	"the application of both of these provisions"-
	the two provisions and the amendments relating to criminal procedure and serious crime-
	"should be premised on a referendum and Act of Parliament, as in clause 6; not an affirmative vote before the Government's opt-in decision and an Act of Parliament before it agrees to the adoption of the legislation."
	The fact that the report states that ought to be put on the record. Our view is that family law
	"is...of similar if not greater importance to social or environmental policy and ought to come within clause 6, triggering a referendum as well as an Act."
	We can see no reason for not doing all those things.
	On opt-in decisions, I defer entirely to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere. Our conclusion is that it
	"would seem to us consistent with the aim of Part 1...for all opt-in decisions to be subject to formal Parliamentary approval."
	My hon. Friend the Member for Witham referred to fishing, and there she was in sensitive and deep waters. She explained very well the six-mile limit, the fisheries limit of up to 12 miles, the 2002 regulation and the associated issues, but that does not alter the fact that this is a serious problem for the fishermen of the United Kingdom. In considering the idea that there should be any restriction of our sovereignty and territorial limits in these matters, we should remember that the entire fisheries policy, which we shall not debate in detail today, I can assure you, Mr Caton, is a complete travesty. There is no question about it: it constitutes the most monumental waste of good fish, which are thrown away and literally left to rot. It is pathetic, and I need say no more than that. That we should regain a degree of sovereignty and territorial competence in relation to fishing is to my mind a given.

John Redwood: My hon. Friend has made a very powerful comment. Many of us have felt for many years that the fisheries policy was a scandal. Successive Governments have said that they would do something about it; none have yet succeeded. Does this not show why we are also worried about the surrender of criminal justice powers? We are surrendering them to the very people who have made such a mess of our fisheries.

William Cash: Absolutely, and the same problem permeates so much of what goes on in the European Union. I am anxious not to get into discussing the merits of the European Union as a whole, and I shall certainly ensure that I keep to the amendments; but I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend. I will come on in a moment to the financial stability mechanism, and try to demonstrate exactly how wrong I think the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) is about the broad questions attached to it. I shall also deal with the mistaken remarks of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) regarding the necessity for my amendments.
	Before I deal with my amendments, I want to discuss the provisions relating to enhanced co-operation and internal passerelles. Our Committee recommended
	"that a decision by the UK to enter enhanced cooperation where the voting procedure has been changed from unanimity to QMV be subject to a referendum lock."
	To my mind, the very idea of such a change is enough to fill me with absolute horror. One aspect that has not been discussed at all during these proceedings is what is euphemistically and rather foolishly known as the ordinary legislative procedure, which I objected to all those years ago when discussing the Maastricht treaty, and which was then described as co-decision. Even in those days, it became apparent that it would be a severe invasion of the sovereignty of this House. Indeed, now we are faced with decisions that are virtually taken away from us by the use of this procedure. It would be invidious of me to go into all that now, but I want to place on the record that this is what is going on, and it is a very dangerous invasion.
	My objections regarding sovereignty, which I expressed, I hope, with some clarity in my speech on clause 18, therefore also apply to the manner in which mechanisms in the Bill and mechanisms already provided for under treaties from Maastricht right the way through to Lisbon have, by their very nature, taken away from this House massive powers. People outside just do not know it, and I severely criticise those in the media who do not give enough attention to the extent to which representatives in their own Parliament are being inhibited in the democratic process of exercising the right to make decisions on behalf of those whom they represent. That is the essence of the problem.
	I commend the speech made by Mr Speaker last week, in which he dealt with two vital matters: the sovereignty of this House and the reasons for it; and scrutiny, including of European business. I wonder whether the Government have really understood the perils to which they are subjecting the British people through the democratic deficit they are creating, despite the talk of a referendum. The Minister for Europe has already told us that the Bill's referendum provisions will not be implemented during this Parliament-heaven alone knows what will have happened between now and then anyway-and that includes the treaty arrangements that Monsieur Fillon is putting forward. We have got used to the whiff of grapeshot. We hear these things and he comes over, has a meeting with the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister has a press conference in which he does not rule out a treaty. He says that we will not be lured into the same arrangements as theirs, but my goodness, we will be locked into them sooner or later. The same applied to the Maastricht treaty and to the treaties of Amsterdam and Nice. Same old story, same old solution-but unfortunately, it is not a solution that is to the benefit of the people whom we represent in this House.
	I am deeply worried about that. Of course, if we were told that the treaty was going to be vetoed, we would be extremely pleased, but we have not heard that. Some will say, "Oh, it's just speculation", but I am afraid that I do not think it is. The treaty deals with social policy, fiscal policy, political decision making and the whole question of economic governance. I therefore strongly recommend that the Government adopt the amendments I have mentioned. I leave it to those who have proposed them to decide whether they will press them to a vote.
	On enhanced co-operation, I simply recommend that people read the evidence from Professor Dougan of Liverpool university. It is referred to in paragraphs 52 to 55 of our report. He cogently demonstrates the reasons and the necessity for the proposals in our report.
	I shall now discuss my amendment 8, on which I need to set out a bit of the history attached to it, because the House of Commons and the people of this country are confronted by a strange situation. I am being given the opportunity to set this out with clarity, because neither this Government, nor the previous Government have done what they should have done at the appropriate time. The British taxpayer has thereby been unnecessarily exposed, and we are talking about billions and billions of taxpayers' money. I will explain why the amounts in question are as they are and how it happened. I ought also to add that this relates to the European financial stability mechanism, which was the mechanism that was partly used for the Irish bail-out. I need not go into the provisions of the Loans to Ireland Bill, because we dealt with that. This was a bilateral loan and that was my suggestion to the Chancellor when the matter first came up on the Floor of the House-perhaps it was a case of minds working alike. I can say only that I am glad that I at least got it on the record that we should opt for a bilateral loan, if anything, and if it were in our national interest. However, on 9 May, after the general election but before the coalition agreement was entered into, the previous Chancellor agreed at an extraordinary ECOFIN meeting that he would engage in this process. A discussion took place, and it is referred to in the explanatory memorandum supplied by the Government. The subject will be debated by European Committee B on 1 February-the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has come into the Chamber and I suspect that he will be answering that debate.

Mike Gapes: Just for the record, is it not a fact that the outgoing Chancellor would have consulted the then shadow Chancellor, who was about to become Chancellor, at that time? So rather than inadvertently giving the wrong impression, perhaps we should put it on the record that in that transition period it would have been necessary and proper for the previous Chancellor to be in discussion with his successor, so that there would be no ambiguity about what would happen.

William Cash: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right on that important point, and I was immediately coming to it-I have in my hand the explanatory memorandum, to which I referred before he intervened, precisely for that purpose. It stands in the name of the Economic Secretary to the Treasury. A scrutiny matter is still outstanding, so paragraph 26 comes under the heading of "Other observations" and states:
	"The Government regrets that the Scrutiny Committees"-
	those of the Commons and the Lords-
	"did not have time to consider this document before it was agreed at Council."
	I can tell the House that that happened because we were in a caretaker period and the European Scrutiny Committee, as such, was not sitting in that interregnum. The memorandum continues:
	"It should be noted that whilst agreement on behalf of the UK was given by the previous administration, cross-party consensus had been gained."
	That is why I made the point that the responsibility lies with both this Government and the previous one.

Austin Mitchell: I am following the discussion with great interest and some concern. As I understand it, we are talking about a decision that could have been taken, and was being taken, by a majority vote, and our outgoing Chancellor could not have stopped it anyway. Is that correct?

William Cash: People keep saying that, but let us examine the actual operation of the European financial stability mechanism. The final decision is taken under the regulations concerned-this is what happened in the context of Ireland-only after the request has been made by the member state. I do not know whether this is one of the reasons why the current Taoiseach-only for the time being, it appears-is in deep trouble, but that is possible. What I do know for certain is that the prescribed procedure laid down under the regulations made under article 122 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union was infringed by the manner in which the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and others moved into Dublin before a request had been made. As we can recall, the Irish Government were saying that they had not made a request and that they did not need the money. It is also true to say that Mr Socrates is saying much the same at the moment.

Austin Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman is being very patient with us and the serious explanation he is giving is well worth considering. I also understood that article 122 was intended to apply to a destabilisation of the euro because of some kind of natural disaster. The destabilisation that took place was caused by the inherent faults in the euro, so why has article 122 been extended to cover a destabilisation resulting from the cracks and failures of the euro itself, given that it should have applied only to natural disasters?

William Cash: The hon. Gentleman and I have engaged in debates on the European question since we first met. I have the greatest respect for him and he has hit the nail right on the head here, because this problem does not just arise because of our exposure to what happens in Portugal and Spain in the future; it also arises from the lack of a sound legal base for the decision taken in the first place by the outgoing Chancellor and endorsed subsequently by the incoming Chancellor. We know that there was a consensus and that an agreement was reached-that answers the question put by the hon. Member for Ilford South. I would not be going about this if I did not believe that substantial matters of principle and of huge cost to the taxpayer are involved.

Wayne David: The hon. Gentleman has raised an extremely important point. I wish to emphasise that he is correct to say that there was a consensus between the outgoing Chancellor and the incoming Chancellor-proper discussions and consultation took place-but that was not the impression given to this House by the current Chancellor of the Exchequer.

William Cash: I was not necessarily here when an impression was being given one way or the other. What I do know is that I have an accurate record of what did take place. I also have with me an article from Monday 10 May containing what are clearly accurate descriptions of the position of the then Chancellor-I believe he was just still the Chancellor then, because the coalition agreement had not been entered into. I recall writing to the Prime Minister on that day, suggesting, among other things, that he should go for a minority Government. I also said that if he was determined to go down the route of a coalition, he should require the Liberal Democrats to abstain on any matters relating to Europe that came up. That possibly explains some of my concerns as matters have developed and more and more European decisions, roadblocks and other difficulties in respect of the decisions we took in our manifesto have emerged.

Austin Mitchell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is very patient. I normally agree with his views, even though I usually express them in rather shorter compass. He still has not answered my question, however, about whether what was agreed at the meeting was a distortion of the original purpose of the machinery, which was intended for coping with natural disasters and should never have been extended to destabilisation and problems caused by the euro.

William Cash: Absolutely, and I shall elaborate on that very quickly. Article 122 concerns matters of emergency and natural disasters, and its use for the purposes of financial stability is clearly-as the European Scrutiny Committee has said-not based on a sound legal footing. That is the issue. I had made that point, but I am happy to repeat it. However, it goes further: because of the failure of the legal base, the whole deal is vitiated. That is the problem. The deal was done in an interregnum and by consensus between the two Chancellors, but it ends up being vitiated as a matter of law. That is very serious given that the whole deal is for €60 billion-£52 billion-but according to the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), the United Kingdom is exposed to a risk of £8 billion.

John Redwood: Although we must ask the former Chancellor and the Chancellor to speak for themselves, as I understand it the former Chancellor quite properly consulted the then shadow Chancellor, who said, "You are the Chancellor"-he could not be sure at that point that he was about to become the Chancellor, because there was no coalition agreement-"and it is for you to make the decision." It is also fair to say that I do not think that the present Chancellor objected to the proposal or sought to block it. I think he felt that it was not his decision to make. It was not a co-decision; it was a decision by the former Chancellor, which the present Chancellor knew about.

William Cash: It was indeed. Furthermore, this is not just a bit of esoteric dancing on the head of a pin. The Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform has examined the matter and I happened to be watching its proceedings when there was a discussion involving Professor Hennessey and two other eminent professors, Professor Hazell and Professor McLean. My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) asked a perceptive question about the status of the arrangement in the context of the Cabinet manual, which, as we know, is now out in the open and being discussed by that Committee in relation to caretaker Governments. The conclusion was that it was within the province of the incoming Chancellor to enter into such a bilateral arrangement in that context, in which he made his decision based on the information he was given by the outgoing Chancellor. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) is right. The problem is that, if that was unlawful, there was no basis on which either of them should have come to that conclusion.

John Redwood: As I understand it, the current Chancellor refused to make a decision. It was not a co-decision. He did not object or support it, but said that it was for the outgoing Chancellor to make the decision. Of course, in practice, if he had not agreed he would have unscrambled it when he got into office, because he had the majority and the outgoing Chancellor did not.

William Cash: I am very happy for that matter to be looked into further. My right hon. Friend might well be right, but I have an article that quotes the outgoing Chancellor of the Exchequer on the BBC's "Today" programme, saying:
	"Overall it is a very good deal for all of us in Europe but also for the wider world. It is"-
	something for us "together". He also said:
	"Our exposure for the additional amount of money could be £8 billion".
	The article also states that he
	"confirmed he had spoken to Shadow Chancellor George Osborne and Lib Dem Treasury spokesman Vince Cable about...responsibility for it"
	and goes on to state:
	"All three had agreed 'there was no way Britain was going to underwrite the euro'."
	When he was pressed, he said:
	"I am not going to disclose the conversations we had, because we had them on the basis that they were private and confidential."
	The article goes on:
	"A statement issued after the talks confirmed that the new fund placed the potential risk squarely with the eurozone."
	That worries me. I do not know where that came from, because it most emphatically is not the case, as we are not part of the eurozone.
	I hope that the Select Committee on the Treasury will look to considering all that. We are talking about substantial sums of money, about an interregnum period and about a rather unusual situation. We might be talking about errors of judgment involving considerable exposure for the taxpayer. For all those reasons, it is very important that we get to the bottom of this. We do not need to turn it into a witch hunt-I do not believe in those sort of things-but as regards scrutiny and accountability, this is an important matter that needs to be resolved properly and efficiently.
	Proper answers need to be given, the Treasury needs to put forward the arguments that it presented and it should disclose the papers. We know perfectly well that, in the kerfuffle of 9 May and the days leading up to it, the then Chancellor might understandably have had a lot on his mind. In the circumstances, all sorts of things could have gone wrong. That is the moment, as I see it, when important strategic decisions involving enormous amounts of money and affecting the taxpayer on what I would term an unlawful basis-a basis that certainly is not legally sound-need to be considered very carefully.
	It might not surprise some hon. Members that I tabled amendment 8. In all such circumstances, other than the situation vis-à-vis the Republic of Ireland, attention should be drawn to these matters, but under no circumstances whatsoever should we give money to Portugal or Spain when there is a facility, agreed at around the same time, for €400 billion to be available for the eurozone. Now a new arrangement has emerged which will be made available permanently after March 2013. If Portugal and Spain are going to go under, however, they will definitely go under before March 2013.

John Redwood: On the important point raised by the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), is it not the case-my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) would know-that the German Government are so worried about the legality of what was done under article 122 that they think we need a new treaty to cover that point?

William Cash: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have here an incredibly interesting article from this week's edition of  Newsweek. It is headlined, "To Rule the Euro Zone". Hon. Members will know that I have tried to take a mild interest in European matters since I came to the House-I notice that one or two people are quite surprised-and I do so for good reasons. Indeed, in the first book I wrote on the subject, "Against a Federal Europe", I drew attention to what I then perceived to be a significant danger that Germany would take a disproportionate and predominant role in European affairs, for which I received a great deal of censorship and some abuse. It was suggested that I was talking about the Germans in rather disrespectful terms, which was quite untrue. However, the sub-heading to an extremely interesting article by Stefan Theil, dated 23 January 2011, reads:
	"The unified currency was supposed to limit German power. Now the Germans are in charge-and no one is happy, not even the Germans."
	The article merits careful reading.

James Clappison: I am listening to my hon. Friend with great interest. In his analysis, if the events that he predicts were actually to occur, how would they be covered by the Bill as it stands, without the benefit of his amendment, or would they not?

William Cash: The short answer is not at all-that is the problem. That is why I tabled the amendment. I am very sad that more people do not have the opportunity to listen to this, because we are talking about a grand total of £8 billion of British money, which is a vast amount given the austerity that is expected of people. After the Irish bail-out payment has been excluded from the same zone, there is also the completely unwarrantable notion to which the decision commits us, unless it is unlawful and is challenged. I invite the Government to challenge it in the European Court-that is the route they should be adopting. That is what I have recommended to the Chancellor. I said, "You must vote against this and challenge the legality of it." Whether or not he entered into some understanding at the time is a matter to be unravelled, but what is certain, to come back to the point made by the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), is that the decision does not come within the framework of article 122-and the European Scrutiny Committee believes the same.

Austin Mitchell: I am puzzled, because the hon. Gentleman is attaching his faith to the €400 billion fund, which would mean that the new arrangement, which was agreed by the then Chancellor and the European Council on 9 May, would not be necessary. That is a puny fund compared with the scale of the problems. If Portugal goes and Spain follows, all that fund will be absorbed and will be necessary, and we will have to fall back on the provisions of article 122. The Irish loan has been portrayed by the hon. Gentleman and the Chancellor as a one-off loan between friends and business partners, but it must have been paid under the article 122 arrangement, so we have already sold the pass.

William Cash: The hon. Gentleman is not wrong to say that the situation has already taken place for Ireland, but that must be seen in light of what has yet to be established-whether or not it was lawful. More investigation is needed on whether that payment would ultimately be ultra vires, or beyond the law, and therefore reclaimable. I do not want to go too far down that route other than to say it needs to be looked into. Furthermore, the financial stability mechanism has not yet passed the scrutiny of the European Committee that is meeting on 1 February, so it is still subject to a decision of the House, although some might argue that the Rubicon has already been crossed.

Austin Mitchell: This is an important amendment for which I shall certainly vote, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman pushes it to a Division so that I have that opportunity. The legality of the decision and the use of article 122 in this way-for a purpose for which it was not intended-is subject to a decision by the European Court, which is a federal institution and always rules in favour of the federal side of the argument. So, I am afraid that his hope that the decision will be ruled illegal will not prevail.

William Cash: That is a general proposition with which one might agree in many instances, but analysis of the use of article 122 in this case, if it is examined as carefully as it should be, would give rise to so many uncertainties that the Court would have grave difficulty in trying to justify its use. However, that is looking to the future.
	We are here in this House and I am suggesting, as is obvious from my amendment, that the provisions that should apply to the balance, beyond the Republic of Ireland, before any decision is taken to provide such facilities to Portugal and/or Spain, and/or any other country for that matter, should fall within clause 6. Let me remind the Committee that clause 6 says:
	"A Minister of the Crown may not vote in favour of or otherwise support a decision to which this subsection applies"-
	I have a special definition of "decision" for this purpose, in case the Minister wants to make a point about that later-
	"unless...the draft decision is approved by Act of Parliament, and...the referendum condition is met."
	There are substantial questions, and if the British people knew about this they would demand a referendum at least. It might be that an Act of Parliament is required in most unusual circumstances to rectify this situation, but all that is without prejudice to my general concern about the manner in which this has happened, the unlawfulness of the deal in the first place and the extent to which various Chancellors entered into the agreement. I understand how it could have happened; let us be sensible and practical. It was in the middle of the setting up of a coalition and huge discussions were going on in which the Chancellor-indeed the two Chancellors-must have been totally saturated in discussion. I can see how this could be slipped through. The Chancellor flew over to ECOFIN and made a decision; I do not want to criticise him, but his eye might not have been as firmly on the ball as one might normally expect.
	On Second Reading of the Loans to Ireland Bill, I asked the previous Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West he following:
	"Did the right hon. Gentleman take legal advice on whether, as I said at the time, the use of the financial stability mechanism was an unlawful deal? Article 122 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union deals with natural disasters, energy supplies and so on, and it has absolutely nothing to do with financial mistakes or misjudgments. Really, the whole thing should never have gone through, and he should have repudiated it on those grounds."
	He replied:
	"Yes, but as I said earlier, because of QMV, the deal would have gone through anyway."
	I do not think that issue alters the question of legality, because if the legal base is wrong, the QMV falls. The previous Chancellor went on:
	"I also do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's analysis or"-
	this is interesting-
	"that the legal position was that clear-cut."-[ Official Report, 15 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 955.]
	I found that response interesting, because he knew there had been serious doubts about legality and he did not say that he took legal advice. Nor did he say whether any legal advice that was given-if any was given-assured him that what was decided was right. There is a powerful reason for this whole matter to be looked at properly. Our Committee has looked at it and we think that any other Committee that thinks it desirable to do the same should do so.
	It is important to include this matter in the Bill by a vote today-both as a matter of principle and because it might otherwise look as though the Government seek somehow to cover it up. That would be disastrous for them, because this involves many billions of taxpayers' money in a time of austerity and difficulty, so it has to be sorted out. The matter has yet to go before the European Committee that I have mentioned on 1 February. No doubt the Minister and his colleagues are hoping that the scrutiny issue will have gone by then, that there will probably be no vote in the Committee and that the scrutiny reserve will be taken off. They may think they will get off scot-free, but I am afraid that my intervention in this debate might throw a spanner in the works, because the Committee now has notice of the points I have made. I hope I have made them in a temperate way with regard to the difficulties and decisions of the Chancellors in question. I do not want to engage in a witch hunt or to be unnecessarily difficult. It is a matter of accountability and of scrutiny. It is a matter of the Government coming clean about the whole situation, and of making certain that we deal with it properly.
	I believe that it is down to the Government to go to the European Court by way of the equivalent of what we call an action for a declaration. Sometimes in the courts, when a difficult legal problem arises, one does not wait for someone else to act. One goes to the court for the equivalent of an action for a declaration. The Government could start the process in our own courts and put the question whether what was done was within the vires of article 122 or not. I do not believe it is, but it is incumbent on the Government to do that. In the meantime, for reasons other than the question of legality, I believe the issue is of such importance that it ought to be subjected to the provisions of clause 6, and should therefore be made subject to both an Act of Parliament and a referendum in these special circumstances.

James Clappison: It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who made an important contribution. Having had the opportunity to hear the argument that fleshed out the bare bones of the amendment, I believe it requires a detailed response from the Government when the time comes.
	My hon. Friend's amendment is a good illustration of a point that has been apparent throughout the consideration of the Bill. Although the Bill is worth while, covers events that may or may not arise in the future, and is a great step forward, we must not lose sight of the things that could take place in the meantime which would amount to a transfer of power from this country and this Chamber to the European Union, undermining our self-government.
	The example that my hon. Friend gave the Committee this evening is a good example of that because, as I understand it, it does not involve a transfer of competence. The competences of the European Union, as we know, are very wide already. There is a long list of them in the treaty of Lisbon. My hon. Friend referred particularly to article 122, which is in the treaty of Lisbon. It is an example of an important decision which has an effect on the exercise of power in this country and on our economic policy, and which takes place under the existing treaty.
	I hope that when my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe sums up, he will explain how the eventuality that my hon. Friend the Member for Stone described would be covered by the Bill, and what his view is on article 122, which seems to be another example of the way in which the competences of the European Union and the existing provisions can be stretched considerably to encompass decisions and policies that seem to be very far from the original intention of the clause on initial reading.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) made some important points in her amendment 81 about nautical policy.
	I shall speak to my amendment 13, before turning to amendments 36, 37 and 38 tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry, which cover some of the ground I hope to cover in another group of amendments on the same subject, but on a different clause. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said that amendment 13 was misguided. The hon. Gentleman is no longer in his place, so I do not want to say too much about him, but I do not think he had entirely grasped what I was trying to achieve with my amendment.
	I had not planned to press amendment 13 to a Division, but I would like to hear the Government's response to it, particularly on this point: my amendment seeks to deal with enhanced co-operation which, as was suggested earlier, is an important step indicating that member states engaging in enhanced co-operation are moving on to a higher level of integration than other member states of the European Union, are adopting qualified majority voting in place of unanimity, and are going ahead of the other states. I should have thought that that was something that we wanted to cover by way of an Act of Parliament and a referendum, if there was a proper list of events that should be covered.
	Would all examples of enhanced co-operation that could take place within the terms of the treaty of Lisbon be covered by the Bill? I know that some of them are, but can my right hon. Friend give me an assurance that if there is a move to enhanced co-operation, it will be covered by the provisions of the clause? I hope he will deal with that later.
	Amendments 36, 37 and 38 are extremely important. I respect the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Stone spoke to them. I am in full sympathy with the points that he made and with what he is trying to achieve. He has taken three examples from the chapter on freedom, security and justice under Title V of the treaty of Lisbon. As he knows, there is a whole chapter that contains similar provisions from which other important elements could be taken. To be fair to my hon. Friend, he has been diligent and chosen three important examples, but there are other equally important examples in a long chapter on freedom, security and justice in the treaty of Lisbon.
	My hon. Friend made the case for his amendments, and I have no problem with that. He has selected items from the field of family law, minimum rules of criminal procedure to which new directives may relate, and identification of further areas of crime to which directives adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure may relate. Inserting these in clause 6 would require them to be approved by a referendum and an Act of Parliament.
	I am interested in the whole field of freedom, security and justice, which used to be called the justice and home affairs pillar, and all the matters contained within that, from which, as hon. Members know, this country currently enjoys an opt-out. I hope that the case I am trying to make will be without prejudice to the later arguments I hope to make on a different clause that these items be dealt with by way of a vote in the House each time an opt-in takes place. In this clause we are debating whether in each case they should be subject to an Act of Parliament and a referendum. Some of the matters covered are so serious that that would be justified.
	It is worth while looking at the history of the provisions. We have had reference to the single market. At the time of the single market, these matters were dealt with by informal meetings of Home Affairs Ministers of member states. Things were put on a more formal footing by the treaty of Maastricht, under which these matters were included in what was called the third pillar, in order to keep them separate from the other provisions of the treaty of Maastricht, which dealt with the single market on a quite different basis.
	Under the treaty of Amsterdam, which was passed in 1997, three or four years after the treaty of Maastricht, that pillar began to be dismantled, and the European Union moved these matters from the third pillar to the first pillar, where they were subject to a separate regime, a different system of voting and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. That was a very significant step indeed. It continued until the pillar collapsed as a result of the treaty of Lisbon, under which the area of justice and home affairs was renamed freedom, security and justice.
	The important point for the House and the United Kingdom is that we enjoy an opt-out from the freedom, security and justice provisions, as we have always done. That was important to this country. The then Labour Government argued at the time that the constitutional treaty differed from the treaty of Lisbon. Because we enjoy the benefit of the opt-out, we have to take a decision whether to opt in when particular measures arise. It is rather different from what happens when directives or other legislative proposals relating to other part of the treaties come before Ministers because we have an opt-out, which means that we do not need to vote, take part or do anything. We enjoy that opt-out unless we choose to opt in.

Martin Horwood: I just want to clarify the practicality of the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. He mentioned minimum judicial procedural rights as one of the home affairs subjects that relate to this. We opted in to that because it is important, for instance, for British citizens arrested abroad to be protected. Is he seriously suggesting that if that issue came up in future he would want it to trigger a referendum, even though it is within the existing competence that we have already conceded to the European level of government?

James Clappison: The hon. Gentleman is furrowing his brow, so perhaps I can help him. We have heard it argued so many times that because a measure has merit we should opt in to it, whether it relates to victims, tackling crime, or this, that and the other. He must come clean and see it, as I have been arguing, as all of a piece, because it is part of a programme of the European Union. It is set out in the treaty of Lisbon as one of the objectives of the EU, and the European Commission is forever coming forward with proposals. It has a whole programme for creating what it describes as an EU area of freedom, security and justice. On the example of judicial procedural rights, the issue is where we determine which judicial procedures should apply in what country. Do we decide that our judicial and criminal procedures should be determined here in this House, or do we hand it to the EU so that it is decided on qualified majority voting and subject to the European Court of Justice?
	We have heard those arguments many times. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that this is part of a programme from the EU, and it was set out in the EU's 2011 work programme as one of its five main political priorities. President Barroso set that out in his state of the Union address to the European Parliament on 7 Sept 2010. The third main priority, after dealing with economic matters, was building an area of freedom, security and justice. We must take it as a whole, rather than picking compartmentalised issues one by one and looking at them judiciously because doing so might make an improvement here or there. It is part of an overall programme for building a European area of freedom, security and justice.

Martin Horwood: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is making a point of principle and that what he has described adds up to a general direction of travel that he is legitimately concerned about. However, I would ask him to consider the practicality of it. If we have an uncontentious and pretty technical issue that is relatively minor in the great scheme of things and that no one particularly objects to it, such as the minimum judicial procedural rights that are intended to protect British citizens abroad, would he really want that to trigger a referendum or, as is more likely because of the fear of a referendum being lost, for it simply not to happen?

James Clappison: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is again quite wrong. None of the items being put forward by the EU are being put forward because they are minor, technical changes that will make little difference; they are being put forward precisely because the EU believes they will make a difference and will help to build a European area of freedom, security and justice.
	So much of this is bogus. Much has been said about what will happen in different countries and about the cross-border dimension, but the decisions will affect every single criminal and civil case that takes place in this country in so far as we have adopted the European directive in question. The EU is trying to introduce its jurisdiction in civil and criminal matters in this country into the whole of our legal system on the basis of what might happen in cross-border cases. I think that individual members states should decide on their criminal and civil legal systems for themselves, as that is a characteristic of a member state and part of its nature. If the hon. Gentleman has so little confidence in what takes place in other member states, he could start by relying on the fact that we are all signatories to the European convention on human rights, as are a number of other countries.

Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman is being generous with his time. My point is not really about the point of principle that he is labouring. He should imagine a hypothetical situation that would apply in this case, in which a matter is important but not massively so in the great scheme of European government and the whole European project and is something that everyone agrees should happen and that is uncontentious. In such a situation in which even he supported the practical step, would he really want to put the UK to the vast expense of a referendum on something that everyone supported?

James Clappison: It is difficult in the field of civil and criminal procedure to disconnect one step from another. The European Court of Justice, whose jurisdiction will be opened up, can always come along and make a decision that goes far beyond what was originally envisaged. We must look at the whole system of civil and criminal justice, including whether decisions are taken in this House, or whether we abnegate self-government and hand those decisions over to the EU.
	The hon. Gentleman can make his case, but I am concerned about the scrutiny and decision making that take place each time we take one of these decisions. He referred to technical matters, but in the course of this short Parliament we have already had two very important directives in the field of freedom, security and justice: the European investigation order and the draft directive on the right to information. I do not know whether he or his colleagues took part in the debate we had in the European Committee, but it was accepted on both sides-it was put forward by the Secretary of State for Justice-that it was an important step in itself. I am not sure what his party's participation in that was, but that was the basis of the decision. That process took place under the existing scrutiny of this House.
	The European Commission has an ambitious programme for the year ahead, and the Minister has conceded that there are 30 or 40 more such measures coming along from the EU. In Mr Barroso's work programme, "Pursuing the citizens' agenda: freedom, security and justice", the first three items listed are: a legal instrument on European contract law; a regulation on improving efficiency and enforcements on judgments in the European Union; and a directive on the rights of and support for victims of crime. With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not think any of those could be described as minor or technical.

William Cash: My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere is not only an expert on this matter, but knows what he is talking about. The reality is that every time one of those decisions is taken-I say this with great respect to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), when he starts talking about comparative advantage-it relates to people and justice. It is about whether they get a fair trial and matters of that kind, which are matters that his constituents would be concerned about. It is terribly important to remember that one paragraph of one of these directives, or even one line, is equivalent to an entire Act of Parliament that we might spend the best part of six months discussing in both Houses. Does my hon. Friend agree that under the proposals such matters will just go whistling through?

James Clappison: The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), whose opinions differ from mine, has made his case very honourably, and it is one that might attract many people outside this House. I have to ask whether he is happy with the ways in which those matters are currently dealt with before this House. The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone seeks to make those matters subject to an Act of Parliament and a referendum. My own humble amendment, which we will come to later-I hope that this debate will not prejudice its consideration-would make matters within the area of freedom, security and justice subject to approval by a vote of this House, which I hope is not too radical a step to propose.
	On any view of it, these are matters that will come before the House, whether as my hon. Friend describes, or, as I shall try to argue later, as a minimum, in the way I am seeking. The hon. Gentleman must look at the system that we have in place for scrutiny of these matters as they come before the House. When they come before the House, as in the case of the investigation order and the right to information order, which we have already had, it is very hard for the House to express its view on those important issues.
	My right hon. Friend the Minister has brought forward some proposals and made a statement last week on how to improve scrutiny of opt-ins to the area of freedom, justice and security. If I may pay my right hon. Friends the Minister and the Foreign Secretary a compliment, I should say that they have made a real step forward with their proposals, but we need to find out just how far that step forward is going to go.
	The following questions are relevant to amendments 36, 37 and 38, because they cover the same area. In each case, when the opt-in to certain European areas such as freedom and security is exercised, a decision will be taken whether the United Kingdom is going to opt into specific measures that the European Union has brought forward. There have been half a dozen already, and there are another 30 or 40 down the track, but, under my right hon. Friend the Minister's scrutiny proposals, will the House have an opportunity to vote on each occasion? That is very important.
	How will the scrutiny override proposals work? I hope the hon. Member for Cheltenham agrees on this point, because he would want to make his case about what a good idea such measures were, and what benefits they would bring. I should want to make my case that such measures should be decided in the House, but we could each make our case and have a vote in the traditional way. I should hope that that was not too dramatic a step for any hon. Member.
	I am concerned about what my right hon. Friend the Minister said about scrutiny override in his statement. That is one aspect on which we could improve, because he said:
	"As currently, the Government will not override the scrutiny process unless an earlier opt-in decision is essential. Where the Government consider an early opt-in to be necessary, it will explain its reasons to Parliament through the statement set out above. In these circumstances, it would usually be appropriate for the statement to be made orally."-[ Official Report, 20 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 52WS.]
	I am not sure that we should put the administrative matters that lie behind the decision, the timetable of the European Union and whatever interminable administrative processes have to be gone through in the Foreign Office before the House's approval. It really does not put us in a very good place-behind what are termed "essential" decisions. The House should have an opportunity to express its view on the decision first, so I invite my right hon. Friend to go away and think about that. It is all very well having a statement after a decision has been taken, but the House would like the opportunity to express its view through a vote before such a decision is taken.
	I have taken part in European Scrutiny Committee debates, and decisions have been taken, the Government have agreed to a legislative measures and then we have had the debate in a European Committee. We do not have any opportunity to inform the Minister's thinking or to debate the matter before the decision is taken, let alone to take a vote on it. Under the current procedures of the House, we cannot do so; it is very difficult to have a substantive vote on security matters. The most that the European Scrutiny Committee can do is to hold a matter in reserve until it has been debated in a European Committee, but neither those nor debates on the Floor of the House provide for a vote to approve or disapprove of particular legislation.

Martin Horwood: rose-

James Clappison: I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has been very reasonable on these matters.

Martin Horwood: I return the compliment. The hon. Gentleman is spending a lot of time talking about the existing scrutiny process in this place and the importance of having a substantive vote. There is a real debate to be had about that, and I am certainly in favour of proper parliamentary scrutiny, but as I read the substance of his amendments I find that their potential impact is to trigger a referendum. That is of a wholly different order of cost and complexity, and it is likely to discourage the very act that we are discussing. In fact, his proposals would probably stop any measure coming before the House for a vote at all, because it would be deemed impractical to go through a referendum.

James Clappison: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, and my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry, who made an extremely good case, will have heard what he said and decide whether to press his amendment to a vote. I take it from what the hon. Gentleman says about proper parliamentary scrutiny that that would include approval for a vote in the case of opt-in, however, because it is no use having just scrutiny, talk and the expression of opinions; we need to have a vote each time an opt-in takes place. I am open to correction from him through another intervention, but I take great heart from what I think he says about regarding a vote on an opt-in as a part of scrutiny, because there is not much point in scrutiny unless we can vote. I think that he agrees, so that is a great step forward. He made some very good points-fair points-about referendums, and I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister to reflect on those matters, because they are important decisions.
	In the manifesto on which I stood at the general election, I promised, as did the rest of my party, to seek to repatriate powers from the European Union. I always thought it would be quite a big ask, but I was going to try to do it. Given the circumstances that have arisen with the coalition, however, the measure in the Bill is in the coalition agreement, and I completely understand the reasons behind that, the need to seek compromise with the Liberal Democrats' entirely honourable position and to examine each opt-in on a case-by-case basis.
	I hope that, first, we consider the case for staying out and retaining the benefits of the opt-out, because that is the best possible solution. If a decision is taken to opt-in, however, I hope also that proper parliamentary scrutiny and a vote are possible on each occasion. Personally, I probably would go as far as my hon. Friend the Member for Stone has gone in some of his proposals, but I hear the comments that have been made about them. We really need to take the matters before us seriously, however, given the scrutiny that my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry has undertaken through his amendments, because the decisions are profound ones.
	Do we wish to have our criminal justice and civil justice system-our legal system-determined in this House, or do we want to hand it over to the European Union, the European Commission, the European institutions and the European Court of Justice for them to rule on?

Austin Mitchell: I rise to speak for two reasons. First, I do not want all the speeches from Opposition Members to be an unremitting chorus of euro-enthusiasm. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and I are stalwart opponents, and I do not want the chorus from the Opposition Benches to be like the slaves chorus from "Nabucco", singing the praises of the instrument of our own punishment-the European Union. Secondly, I support some of the amendments-81, 8 and 79, in particular.
	I am very supportive of amendment 81, which was tabled by Members representing two glorious ports-I did not know they were fishing ports-in Essex, because it involves an important principle. There are constant attempts to remove our national limits, which were agreed when we entered the common fisheries policy in 1972. A few months before we began our entry negotiations, the policy was stitched together to get European hands on our fish, but we managed to preserve some national limits: the 6 nautical miles around most of the English coast, and the 12 nautical miles around north Britain and Scotland. We police the waters up to the median line, or 50 miles.
	When I went out on a fisheries protection vessel, I was distressed to find that when the crew detected European vessels over-fishing, they did not have the right of hot pursuit, so all the European vessel had to do was to beetle across the median line and it was safe. My suggestion that the protection vessel should shell and sink the European vessel was taken as an unfriendly act towards Europe and, for some reason, discounted, but it is important to preserve our waters.
	My concern arises from the recent Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall programmes, which provided a very good service by highlighting the problem of discards. They are inherent among fish allocated by catch quotas. Indeed, if one allocates fish by catch quotas in mixed fisheries, one is always going to get discards. The discards increase as the quotas go down, because fishermen are bound to catch fish that are not in their current quota.
	Indeed, I wrote to Fearnley-Whittingstall, suggesting that it would be a brilliant idea to establish a very expensive restaurant on a cruise ship that went round picking up Grimsby fishing vessel discards and cooking them for an exclusive clientele at enormously high prices. He does not seem to have implemented it yet, but it is a viable idea. It is very difficult to stop discards when there is equal access to a common resource, but that is the basis of the common fisheries policy to which Ted Heath unfortunately agreed in 1972 as the price of entry into the EU. He was so desperate to go in that he accepted that condition.
	We certainly have to work to control our waters, as amendment 82 suggests, and to stop or reduce discards. There are various ways to do that. I am hoping that Fearnley-Whittingstall will come along to the all-party parliamentary fisheries group to tell us his ideas. I will not tell the Committee mine, because I would go off the subject.

Kelvin Hopkins: As my hon. Friend knows, I agree entirely with everything he is saying. Does he agree that we could operate British waters in the way that Norway operates its waters? It controls its own fishing grounds, every fishing boat is monitored, there are no discards and there is no over-fishing. It protects its fish in a proper way. That can be done only if countries husband their own resources in their own fisheries. That is the only way forward.

Austin Mitchell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, as usual. The key is the ability of a nation to control its own waters up to the 200-nautical-mile limit, which it would have been sensible to retain, and which we could have retained had we negotiated harder in 1972, but we did not. Only a nation can conserve its own national resource-what is handed on to the next generations of fishermen. The Heath Government made a tragic decision from the point of view of the fishing industry. I want to reverse that, and we should work to do so. I still want to pull out of the common fisheries policy. Perhaps it would require a few gunboats around the coast to establish that.

Martin Horwood: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point, but does he not fear that if we returned fisheries entirely to national competence, not every nation would be quite as observant of their own rules as the Norwegians, and there might be a free-for-all that would fatally damage the British fishing industry?

Austin Mitchell: That, of course, is nonsense, because nations that have taken control of their own waters and their own 200-nautical-mile limit, such as Iceland, have operated very good and effective conservation policies. It is only nations that have to admit other nations into their waters, under force of European law, that cannot do that.

Kelvin Hopkins: I support my hon. Friend, yet again. Clearly, it is simple to monitor what is landed in one's own country, but impossible to monitor what is landed in another country. If we had our own fishing waters with our own fishing vessels-

Martin Horwood: Spanish fleets.

Kelvin Hopkins: Spanish fleets would not fish in our waters, because the idea is that countries would fish in their own waters. I cannot see the problem and I agree with my hon. Friend.

Austin Mitchell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Liberal Democrats are slavish in their idealism of Europe at any price, and will abdicate any British interest to express their devotion to the nefarious construction called the European Union.

Martin Horwood: rose-

Austin Mitchell: If the hon. Gentleman wants to express more devotion to the farce of the European Union, he is welcome to do so.

Martin Horwood: I am just intrigued about precisely what method the hon. Gentleman would use to defend our waters. The Icelanders use gunboats. Is he advocating gunboat diplomacy from the Labour Benches?

Austin Mitchell: Frankly, yes. However, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is not so distrustful of our European partners and friends that he believes that if we took legal control of our waters, they would come in and try to steal our fish. Is that his estimation of their character? Is he telling us that there are nations of thieves that would come in and steal our fish if we took our own waters, as is our right? Is that what he is saying? Apparently not.
	Amendment 81 expresses an important principle that we need to express and defend constantly. The amendment is a way of defending that principle, so I shall certainly vote for it if it is put to the vote.
	I shall move on to amendments 8 and 79. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) in drawing the attention of the Committee to this situation, because it is extremely dangerous from a British point of view. He said essentially that we will be liable, under article 122 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, for difficulties produced by the failure of the euro, and that we will have to make a contribution. That will be decided on by qualified majority voting. If correct, that is an appalling situation. It is important for the Government to tell us tonight whether it is correct.
	In my view, one of the greatest achievements of the previous Prime Minister was that he kept us out of the euro when he was Chancellor, against the overwhelming enthusiasm of the then Prime Minister, who saw joining the euro as a romantic gesture of support for Europe-almost an emotional spasm of support for Europe-against the wishes of the majority of the Cabinet, and against the pressure of the Liberal party, which has always been slavishly devoted to any European instrument, however damaging the consequences.

Martin Horwood: indicated dissent.

Austin Mitchell: During the debate on the exchange rate mechanism, I remember the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) leading a huge Liberal crowd up and down Whitehall chanting, "Move to the narrower bands now! Move to the narrower bands now!" That was the Liberal party's contribution to that great debate. It is slavishly attached to European gestures such as the euro, as was our former Prime Minister. The previous Prime Minister, when Chancellor, kept us out. That was a great achievement. He kept us out and warned that the regime was unstable.
	There cannot be a common currency without a common Government to back it and redistribute money to the regions that are damaged by the common currency and the higher interest rates imposed by it. The basic problem is that the euro cannot work, because it brings together regimes under one currency that vary enormously in their productivity and power. The southern economies are not only weaker, but insolvent to boot and certainly uncompetitive. Those uncompetitive economies cannot be united in a currency with the powerful German economy, which is extremely competitive. Inflation is kept very low in Germany by investment, the restructuring of the economy and the agreement with the unions to keep wages down. It is impossible for economies such as Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland to remain competitive in that situation. To be competitive, they face a constant diet of cuts and attempts to get their inflation rates down to the German level. That is difficult and it has to go on for years. By joining the euro, those countries effectively said that they would deflate their economies, punish their people and face riots in the streets for 20 or 30 years in a desperate attempt-which will not work-to get their levels of competitiveness down to the same as Germany's. That situation does not work.

Kelvin Hopkins: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend again. It is interesting that there has been friction recently between France and Germany because France wants to integrate the whole European economy more deeply and Germany is holding back. Germany can see that it will constantly have to shell out euros-or disguised Deutschmarks-to help the poorer countries in Europe, and it does not want to do that because it would become the paymaster of the whole of the European Union in perpetuity.

Austin Mitchell: That is true. Under the old system, the inflation rates in France and Italy were higher than that in Germany, so they were constantly getting out of kilter and becoming uncompetitive. They constantly resorted to devaluing, which brought them back to a competitive level because it reduced their costs of production in terms of foreign currencies. There is a history of France and Italy devaluing. They cannot do that when they are in the euro.

William Cash: Would the hon. Gentleman be interested to know that the Library has given me some figures showing that our balance of payments deficit with Germany was £12 billion in 2009? Heaven alone knows what it is now. Between 1999 and 2009 there was a deficit of £5 billion between the other 26 EU member states and ourselves, but we have a surplus of £11 billion with the rest of the world. His point is extremely sound-the EU is just not working.

Austin Mitchell: I am grateful for that point, which is absolutely true. We are earning a surplus in the rest of the world, which then goes as a tribute to finance our deficit in Europe. Before we entered the Common Market in 1972, we had a surplus in our trade with Europe. It then became a deficit, which has become ever heavier as the years have gone on because of our economy's uncompetitive nature compared with the German economy. All the other weaker European economies face the same problem, and there is no way for them to get around it without facing a diet of cuts, freezes and squeezes for decades, and having to depress the living standards of their own people to keep costs down. That strain is built into the system, which Germany dominates and swamps because of its competitiveness and low inflation. Good luck to it-it has worked for that and run its economy in a very sensible fashion, but a common currency cannot be maintained in that situation. There will therefore be crises.
	Those inevitable crises have, under article 122 of the Lisbon treaty, now been portrayed as the results of a natural disaster. That means that we, who have wisely stayed out of the scheme and warned of the consequences of going ahead with that insane regime, must also contribute to cost of clearing up the mess that is implicit in the system. That is a monstrous imposition.
	I take it that at his last Council of Ministers meeting on 9 May, our previous Chancellor was conned. He was told that article 122 would apply under qualified majority voting, so it was no use his opposing it because we would be bound by it in any case. That was just not true, because if it applies to mutual support in the event of natural disasters, it cannot apply to faults inherent in the structure of the euro itself. That is not a natural disaster; it is a folly of man.

William Cash: I add a point that I really ought to have made in my own contribution. When the European Council arrived at the new mechanism that it has just set up, which the Prime Minister announced the other day, it used the most extraordinary language. It used the expression that there was "no need" for the continuation of the mechanism that was set up last May. It is not anything to do with need, however; it is about the fact that they know perfectly well that it was unlawful.

Austin Mitchell: Absolutely right. We need to be intellectually devious in trying to read through European documents, because they are extremely cunningly written and always cover up the reality very well. The same is true of Government statements on matters European. The Government do not want the full horror to emerge, so statements are rewritten to make them safe, saleable and acceptable. Once again, the hon. Gentleman is correct, and he has done the Committee a great service today in warning us of the situation and pointing out the consequences if it is prolonged. I believe that the arrangement extends to March 2013, or is it May?

William Cash: March.

Austin Mitchell: Right, and then it will lapse. Until then, we could be liable for enormous sums. Imagine what the British electorate would say. We have already extended a massive loan to Ireland, even though the Chancellor tells that our country is over-borrowed and cannot borrow any more because world markets will cancel our credit cards and stop our credit on the bond markets. Suddenly, however, he can borrow huge sums-billions-to help Ireland. He says that it is a one-off and not a precedent, but if it is carried out under article 122 of the Lisbon treaty, it is a precedent for acceptance of a mechanism that is designed to deal with natural disasters.
	The hon. Member for Stone hoped that the mechanism would be ruled illegal by the European Court, but I have given up faith in the European Court. It never rules how I want it to rule, whereas our courts do sometimes. It is probably composed of Liberal Democrat jurists, for all I know. It certainly gives that appearance.

Kelvin Hopkins: Again, I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. The ECJ has shown itself to be a political organ, not a legal one, by taking the side of employers in the Viking Line dispute and other cases. It is a court of the business class and of big business, not a court for ordinary people.

Austin Mitchell: That is true. It gives any verdict one wants, provided that it supports and advances the EU. That is the nature of the European Court, so should we ask that body to rule on the legality of treating article 122 as an all-purpose rescue operation to which we have to contribute?
	The Minister smiles-indulgently, I hope. I hope that he will explain the Government's view on the matter, because to my mind it is crucial that amendments 8 and 79 are accepted. I am glad to hear that the hon. Member for Stone will force a vote, because they are key amendments. We need to be sure that the British electorate will not be faced with a series of massive loans, such as the Irish loan, to support Portugal, for instance, or Spain if things go belly-up there. That is quite possible, and the costs there would be huge because Spain has a much bigger population than Ireland, Greece or Portugal. Why should an electorate who are facing a blitzkrieg of massive cuts and tax increases welcome with joy a decision to fork out more billions to help people whom we warned that they were entering into a disastrous situation by taking on the euro? That would be totally unacceptable, and the Government would be laughed out of court.

Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that people from the UK are very generous people, and that they always like to help, but they do not have bottomless pockets and cannot keep on bailing out every country in the EU. Does he agree that a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere, so that lending to other countries and subsidising them stops?

Austin Mitchell: I agree absolutely, and that line in the sand is here. Actually, it has to be a line in the concrete, because we cannot go on making contributions under article 122, which is meant for another purpose entirely.

Ben Gummer: Notwithstanding our treaty obligations, it seems to me that the hon. Gentleman is getting hung up on article 122. Is he really arguing that even if it were in our economic interest to support the bail-out of a country whose trade with us means that intervention is necessary, he would still oppose it?

Austin Mitchell: I have not actually said that, have I? I have said that the Chancellor treated the Irish case as a one-off, but it is not. It opens the door to giving aid to other countries that have put themselves in the same situation through a foolish adherence to a euro that is fated to collapse. I make no judgment about the Irish case, although it is a big bill to pay for a country that the Chancellor tells us is over-borrowed and has no credit on the world market. Why should that country start raising huge loads more money to pay other countries because of the failures of the euro?

Stephen Gilbert: I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but can he imagine a situation in which rather than being a giver, the UK is the receiver of aid under that arrangement? Is he really saying that rather than get the aid that our financial sector might hypothetically need in a quick and timely way, he would want a referendum lock to apply?

Austin Mitchell: I am afraid that that is ridiculous. I was leaping with joy when the hon. Gentleman, a Liberal Democrat, said he was taking a point that I had made. I thought that sense had at last dawned, but alas it turned out to be only stupidity. Nobody is suggesting that the UK would want Europe to be liable if our system failed. The crucial point is that we did not enter the euro. Having not entered it, we should be immune from the consequences imposed on those who did. That is all I am saying. I do not want European aid. The wisdom of former Chancellors in keeping us out of the euro allows us to adjust our exchange rate. Other nations have problems because they cannot do that. We have had a 25% devaluation, and the pound could-and should, in my view-go lower. That reduces the cost of our currency and makes us competitive once again. That is our adjustment. We do not need help or aid because we have the flexibility of being outside the euro. Does the hon. Gentleman want this economic education class to continue or will he keep quiet?

Stephen Gilbert: Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that we are both outside the euro and outside the effects of the euro? Is he saying that Portugal, Ireland, Italy or any country that needs European financial help in future can be allowed to collapse, and that that will have no effect whatever here in the UK?

Austin Mitchell: Oh it is difficult talking to Liberal Democrats! I did not actually say that we would be outside the effects of the euro. In fact, the foolish deflation that is going on all over Europe damages us, because half of our trade is with Europe and we want our exports to Europe to increase. With our ability to devalue, we have the ability to increase our exports, and they are increasing for the first time in many years-thanks to devaluation. I want markets in Europe to be healthy, but I do not want the British taxpayer to be asked to support Europe in its folly.

Kelvin Hopkins: I want to reinforce what my hon. Friend is saying. We have a massive trade deficit with the rest of the EU. Even if in some mad world we decided to have a trade block, that would be beneficial. We would have more money to spend on our own things and to generate our own economy, and more money to spend elsewhere in the world. The idea that we benefit massively in trade from the EU is complete nonsense. It benefits massively from having us next door.

Austin Mitchell: That is true-and then the EU forces us to eat its overpriced agricultural products. The EU gets it all ways. It steals about £3 billion-worth of our fish every year through the common fisheries policy, and costs us about £18 billion on the common agricultural policy, and then expects us to buy its overpriced exports.

Martin Horwood: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Iceland has just unilaterally increased its mackerel quotas, which if anything-I would not use the word "stealing"-is potentially damaging to Scottish fish stocks? That is quite a major diplomatic issue at the moment and it has occurred under precisely the regime that he is recommending.

Graham Brady: Order. May I suggest that we are ranging a little wide? Ranging as far as discussing Iceland might be out of order.

Austin Mitchell: You are absolutely right, Mr Brady. By raising mackerel, the Liberal Democrats were seeking to bring a lot of red herrings dancing into my view. I hold no brief for the Scots who want the Icelanders to stop catching mackerel. They have a perfect right to do so. It is daft to talk about cutting quotas of imports for Icelandic fish, which we need, to punish Iceland for mackerel fishing.
	That Liberal Democrat red herring has robbed and wasted the Committee's time and delayed my final peroration. The final word from me is this. The situation can be remedied by the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Stone, particularly amendments 8 and 79. It should be remedied, because it is potentially disastrous to accept that article 122 of the Lisbon treaty can be applied to extract support from the UK for the failures of the euro, when we are not members of the euro. I hope that the Government clarify that position, and that the amendments are made.

Stephen Gilbert: It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Anybody watching us must think that they have fallen through the looking glass. We are debating amendments to a Bill that prevents further transfer of power from the UK to the European level of government, in the context of a coalition that has said that it will allow no further significant transfers of power in the duration of its office, and yet Conservative and Labour Members are attacking the Bill while Liberal Democrat Members try to defend it.

William Cash: I cannot resist intervening. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the Minister for Europe has said that there is no chance or intention of holding a referendum under the proposals in this Bill until the next Parliament at the earliest-we are in dead parrot territory. The Minister will not deny that. The debate is about what is happening right now. Europe is in total chaos. Every country bar Germany is imploding, but the hon. Gentleman is carrying on as if everything is fine.

Stephen Gilbert: I feel like I am entering into my own version of "Back to the Future" in debating the EU with the hon. Gentleman. The Government's position is quite clear. There will be no referendum over the next five years because there will be no significant transfer of power or competences. The Liberal Democrats welcome that, and I would have thought that he would too.

Wayne David: rose -

Stephen Gilbert: I am more than happy to give way to the Opposition spokesman.

Wayne David: To add to the thesis of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), given that the Labour party is not in favour of any further EU treaty changes and that we cannot bind a future Parliament, what is the point of the Bill?

Stephen Gilbert: In fact, what we know from yesterday's debate in this Committee is that the Labour party, given the bizarre system it proposed in its defeated amendments, is in favour of giving the House of Lords a veto on whether the British Parliament chooses to put a referendum to the British people.

Thomas Docherty: Did I hear the hon. Gentleman correctly? Did he say a moment ago that there will be no further significant transfer of power to Brussels? Will he outline which not very significant powers will be transferred during this Parliament?

Stephen Gilbert: The Bill is absolutely clear on that. A number of criteria have to be met and a number of hurdles must be jumped. We debated the significance test yesterday-the hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber and would have carefully listened to the debate-but let me give him an example. At the moment, in the objectives of the EU as I understand them, there is no requirement to combat climate change. Of course, the EU is rightly and properly taking action on environmental issues, but the simple codification of that into one of the objectives of the EU would be quite a minor change, and one that we would all welcome and accept as necessary and important.

William Cash: Almost everything the hon. Gentleman says demonstrates the complete divergence of views between many Conservatives and many Liberal Democrats. Does he accept that a key problem facing the coalition Government is not only the integral federal views of the Liberal Democrats on matters relating to Europe, by which they are totally besotted, but the implementation of the Lisbon treaty? That is where the problem arises. People talk about transfers of power, but actually, the implementation of existing arrangements under the Lisbon treaty is causing so much difficulty-it is also an embarrassment to Opposition Front Benchers.

Stephen Gilbert: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but it is not for me to judge who or what might be an embarrassment to those on the Front Benches. The reality is that there are clearly a number of safeguards in the Lisbon treaty, including the emergency brake clauses, which can be exercised by national Parliaments. In some cases, they would not require the UK Government to take a view-Parliament can take a view of its own volition. However, I shall resist further temptation from hon. Members and press ahead with my comments on some of the specific amendments in the group, particularly amendments 81, 54, 8 and 79.
	Amendment 81 is in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), and I have a slight declaration of interest to make in that my great-grandfather was a fisherman along the north Cornwall coast out of Padstow. My constituency also includes many fishing communities, for whom the common fisheries policy in its current iteration is a significant problem. There is huge agreement across the House that having nationally decided quotas rather than regionally set quotas is a problem. The discard policy is also a problem, because it is absurd for this nation to have to throw back hundreds of tonnes of perfectly good fish when we could be using it to feed people in this time of pressures on food security around the world and concerns about the sustainability of fish resources.
	I share my hon. Friend's determination to secure real reform of the CFP. We need to put sustainability at its heart and ensure that local communities are driving it. We also need to review the policy on discards. However, amendment 81 is-to shamelessly snag a pun that has already been used tonight-a red herring. I do not see how it will strengthen our hand when it comes to reform of the CFP-

Priti Patel: As I said earlier, the amendment would not reform the policy per se, but I tabled it because the future of our territorial waters cannot be left to chance. It is a fundamental issue.

Stephen Gilbert: I have some sympathy with the point that my hon. Friend makes, but it is a misnomer to call the amendment an effort to reform the CFP. As I understand it, the competencies under which the CFP sits were transferred three decades ago. They are already decided under qualified majority voting, and having a referendum on this issue-should it even be a topic for debate, and I know of no such plans-would have no effect.

Thomas Docherty: It might help the debate to know that the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, will shortly carry out an inquiry into fishing policy. I am sure that the Minister will be excited to have the chance to give evidence on the issue of discards.

Stephen Gilbert: I am grateful for that intervention and I am sure that the fact that the Committee will look at this issue will be as worthy of note as the fact that I have joined hon. Members from both sides of the House in signing the early-day motion on discards policy. On every occasion that this House has debated the CFP, a clear signal should have been received by Ministers that we want reform and we want it now. However, amendment 81 is not that reform.
	It is clear that negotiations on the CFP will start later this year. I would like an assurance from the Minister that he has heard the concerns that have been expressed in this debate and will put protection of the UK's fish stocks at the heart of those negotiations.

Martin Horwood: What is my hon. Friend's opinion on some of the other amendments that have been tabled? Does he think that reform of the CFP might be made more difficult if we have such a hair trigger for referendums that it brings the whole process grinding to a halt?

Stephen Gilbert: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We need to be careful what we wish for. Many of the amendments we are discussing would introduce a hair-trigger-an apt expression-approach to referendums that could end up shooting the UK's best interests in the foot.

Jim Shannon: The hon. Member mentioned regionalisation and the opportunity for other parts of the UK to be in control of fishing. Does he think that the localised control of fishing is the way forward to take control away from Europe and ensure that local people, who have the knowledge and the experience, can have an input into the process?

Stephen Gilbert: I share the approach that the hon. Gentleman outlines. It is the fishing communities who understand sustainability and the importance of ensuring that we have viable stocks for the future, and they will respond to those needs. It is right that responsibility for fishing policy should be reduced to the region, if not further to local areas.
	Amendment 54, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), is a little bizarre, because it promotes the notion that being given extra rights would require a referendum. The rights of EU citizens come under article 20 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union and, as far as I can tell, they number four at the moment. They are the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the member states; the right to vote and stand as candidates in elections to the European Parliament and in municipal elections in the state of residence, under the same conditions as nationals of that state; the right to petition the European Parliament, to apply to the European ombudsman, and to address the institutions and advisory bodies of the European Union; and the right to enjoy, in the territory of a third country in which the member state of which they are nationals is not represented, the protection of diplomatic and consular authorities-a point about which the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) spoke at some length. My contention is that adding to the rights of citizens cannot be seen as a transfer of power or competence from the EU to the UK.

David Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree that, by definition, if citizens of another European Union member state are given rights by the European Union to do things in this country, the rights of our own citizens are diluted and power is therefore transferred to the rest of the European Union?

Stephen Gilbert: I simply do not agree. If rights are transferred to the EU level, every European citizen will benefit from those rights, including the many hundreds of thousands of British citizens who live and work in the other European Union member states.

Andrew Turner: Does my hon. Friend agree that they have rights and we have liabilities, and that is the difference?

Stephen Gilbert: My hon. Friend and I share an interest in many matters, and I was delighted that the other place came to his rescue in the Parliamentary Constituencies and Voting Bill-although I am less pleased that it did not come to Cornwall's rescue. However, on this issue I disagree with him. It is a caricature to say that they have rights and we have liabilities. The reality is that many of the people I went to school with now live and work in member states of the European Union and it is right that they should have protections extended to them in the same way that protections are extended to EU nationals living and working here.
	My hon. Friend's philosophical disagreement does not detract from my central point, which is that this is not a transfer of power or competence from the UK, so I do not see the need for the referendum lock to be introduced. More broadly, is it not belief in those human rights and the shared view of human nature-the belief in the rule of law, the sanctity of human life and that all individuals are born equal-that unites member states in the European Union and leads to our ability to have a common view on many issues?

William Cash: On the question of human rights-of course, our manifesto committed us to the repeal of the Human Rights Act 1998-what makes the hon. Gentleman think that the people of the United Kingdom would have been that much worse off if the European Human Rights Act had never been passed? What makes him believe that the vast amounts of money going to all the lawyers in the human rights environment are doing the people of this country any great service?

Stephen Gilbert: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. The European Human Rights Act gave rights to people in this country that they did not enjoy previously. Those rights are now in statute. Of course, hon. Members can make the argument that the House could have conferred those rights-but then this House is exactly the body that did confer them, first through the 1972 treaty, and secondly under the previous Government through bringing the European human rights treaty into British statute, as I understand it.

David Nuttall: My hon. Friend is touching on one of the fundamental differences between how the European Union sees rights, and how this sovereign Parliament sees them. Parliament does not think that citizens need to be given any human rights because they are free to do anything under the law, whereas the European Union thinks that it has those rights to hand out to citizens of its European superstate as part of some great, grandiose gesture. That is the difference.

Stephen Gilbert: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As a loyal subject of the Crown, I am equally pleased to be a citizen of the EU.
	I will finish with some brief comments on amendments 8 and 79, which deal with the notion of a referendum lock on giving further financial aid to countries other than Ireland-an issue on which the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and I have just engaged. If the amendments are passed, they would damage diplomatic relations, delay the EU in helping struggling economies and potentially deny to the UK the same kind of benefits that Ireland has had in the past.
	I want to make it clear that the Liberal Democrats support the Bill: it is about reconnecting the British people with the European issue; about saying that over the next five years, there will be no further transfer of powers and competencies; about putting that commitment in law; and about raising the benchmark significantly higher than it has been to date.

Ben Gummer: I had many comments to make but, happily, my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) has covered much of the ground I wanted to cover. I shall therefore be quite brief. Yesterday, in a memorable speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) described the Bill as the William Cash memorial Bill. Although I would not like to use such lapidary language with regard to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, it is certainly a memorial in the sense that all that he has done over the years to protect the House and nation from the transference of powers to the European Union is contained within clause 6, so that it will not happen again without a referendum of the British people. I suspect that that is why my hon. Friend, whom I admire and have watched with great interest today, as a newcomer to the House, is uncertain about parts of the Bill.
	Mention was made earlier of the fact that my hon. Friend's seat is often left cold while he explains the dangers of the transference of powers. The Bill will render much of that function, which he has served with such honour over the years, no longer necessary, because it encompasses what the British people have wanted for so long, as has been pointed out by so many people in this debate, which is for the powers of Parliament to remain here and not be transferred. Whether on the euro, social policy, finance, jurisprudence or border control-all those things that he has spoken about so many times-will now sit here in statute unable to be moved to a qualified majority voting system in the Council without the matter being referred to the British people.
	The Bill does not just enshrine in law the wishes of the British people over many years; it is also a testament to the intellectual coherence of the coalition's project. It is about retaining power at the most local level possible. That does not just apply to this Parliament, but involves pushing power down to local communities wherever possible. That is why the cat-calling about the Bill from the Opposition is so misguided. They do not understand how it fits into the wider revolution being instituted by the coalition Government of bringing power as close to the people as possible. That is why I suspect they do not like it very much. It goes against everything that the Labour party believes in, which is to push power up to people who know best at all times.
	We need only look at some of the comments made in this and previous debates. The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), who is no longer in his seat, said in a previous debate on the European Union that the Bill would be a mistake because it would make it harder for Turkey to accede to the EU. Today, we heard points about the European arrest warrant-because, of course, it is he who knows best, and not the British people. Of course, it is the Opposition Front-Bench team who know best-in their minds-and not the British people.

Wayne David: The hon. Gentleman has referred to Turkey. I hope that he has not forgotten that, as we discussed yesterday, a referendum on Turkish accession is expressly excluded from the Bill that he is supporting.

Graham Brady: Order. In order to ensure that the voice of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) is picked up, may I advise him to address the microphone and the Committee more directly? That would be helpful.

Ben Gummer: I apologise, Mr Brady.
	As the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) knows, my general point is that the comments the Opposition Members have made today betray the fact that they do not trust the British people with these decisions. They said, "Well, of course, we could put a whole series of things to a referendum". But this is the point: it is about the transference not of decision making, but of powers by treaty to an outside body. Whether in their attitude to the European constitution-it is odd to try to force a constitution on the British people and a nation that does not have a constitution-or whether on the Lisbon treaty, on which a referendum was promised but not given, at every single point, the Labour party has shown its contempt for what the people want. In the course of that, it has damaged the very European project that it supports. For instance, it makes it very difficult to make the argument for the European arrest warrant-it actually helped one of my constituents in a moment of great difficulty, as I mentioned earlier-because every time it is rightly perceived to be a decision by people who think they know best but who do not trust the people with the arguments.

Emma Reynolds: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is very gracious. Is it not the case that the Conservative Government in the 1980s and 1990s agreed to massive transfers of powers, without a referendum, from Westminster to Brussels in the form of the Single European Act and the Maastricht treaty? Is it not also the case that in our lifetime-in fact, since 1973-no Conservative Government have granted the people of this country a referendum? We actually have quite a good track record on referendums in this country-we granted many on devolution and one on membership of the European Union in 1975-but no Conservative Government have ever done such a thing.

Ben Gummer: The hon. Lady, who made an excellent speech earlier-I believe-said then that she had not read the 1973 Conservative manifesto. Well, I am of a similar age-I think-and I cannot stand here and answer for the actions of previous Conservative Governments, except to say that every one of those Acts and treaties was prefigured in a Conservative party manifesto. The difference between the Labour and Conservative parties is that we were promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, but did not get one. We were also promised a referendum on the euro, which is why the relevant provision is in the Bill. Had we decided to join the euro, that referendum would never have happened, because we did not have one on the Lisbon treaty. The Labour party would have been true to form.
	The hon. Lady asked what the need was for the passerelle protection in the Bill and why would we not just veto each action at the Council of Ministers. The answer is precisely this: although we can trust the coalition Government not to transfer powers, if and when the Opposition show themselves capable of government, we will not be able to trust them precisely because on two occasions they failed to do what they should have.

Emma Reynolds: First, if our Government had decided that the economic conditions were right to go into the euro, which we did not, we would have given the British people a vote on that, because it would have been a significant monetary change. On the hon. Gentleman's second point, I did make the remarks to which he has referred, but I do not think they are as significant as he claims.

Ben Gummer: I thank the hon. Lady for that, but the British people have lost their trust in what the Opposition say on matters European. The Opposition's only contribution to this debate is one pathetic amendment-amendment 100-which does nothing to address the needs of their constituents, providing no constructive proposal whatever, unlike so many that my hon. Friends have proposed.

Emma Reynolds: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Ben Gummer: I am sorry, but if the hon. Lady does not mind, I am going to wrap up now.
	What the Opposition do not understand-and what I think many on the Government Benches do-is the entirely radical nature of this Bill. It will fundamentally change the relationship between the people of this country-our constituents-and the European Union, and in so doing will change the functioning of the European Union. It is without doubt one of the more exciting Bills to be put before the House by the coalition Government, and I support it wholeheartedly.

David Lidington: Clause 6 lists those decisions that would always require approval by an Act of Parliament and a referendum. Most of the amendments that we have been considering today seek to add new provisions to clause 6. I want to try to do justice to each amendment and to the various topics that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have raised in this debate.
	Let me turn first to the issue of citizenship, which is the subject of amendment 54, as well as the consequential amendment 55, both tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall). The amendments would mean that if a decision under article 25 of the TFEU were to add to or strengthen the list of rights for citizens of member states in the European Union contained in article 20(2) of that treaty, there would have to be a referendum before the United Kingdom could agree to it. I understand my hon. Friend's concerns, and he is right to say that the question of citizenship is important and sensitive. However, where I took issue with him was when he suggested that there was no limit to the ability of the European Union to confer new rights upon European citizens. There are a number of such limits specified in the treaties. Article 20(1) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union states:
	"Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship."
	Article 20 also states that "rights"-that is, rights that people possess in their capacity as European Union citizens-shall be
	"exercised in accordance with the conditions and limits defined by the Treaties".
	Article 25 is not a new article, but it does concern a sensitive issue, and that is why the Bill proposes to strengthen parliamentary scrutiny of this important ratchet clause and to require that an Act of Parliament be passed before a Minister could notify approval by this country of a Council decision extending the rights attaching to EU citizenship.
	That is also the reason-I hope that this will give my hon. Friend some assurance-why the Bill puts a referendum lock on any proposal that the United Kingdom give up its veto over article 25. We have also put a referendum lock on any proposal that the UK should give up other vetoes in the treaty chapter on citizenship of the Union, such as its veto over the arrangements for allowing EU citizens to vote in local elections or the arrangements for allowing people to stand and vote in European parliamentary elections. However, we do not believe that we need a referendum before agreeing to legislation to strengthen or to add to the rights of citizens of member states under article 25, because such legislation can be made only within existing competence. If there were any proposal to change the treaty to extend those areas of competence on which the rights of EU citizens could be based, such a treaty change proposal would be caught automatically by clause 4 and its requirement for a referendum before any extension of or addition to European Union competence.
	My hon. Friends the Members for Witham (Priti Patel) and for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) both spoke about the common fisheries policy, as did the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell). In addressing amendment 81, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Witham, I acknowledge from the start that the Government completely accept that the common fisheries policy has major problems-or, in plain English, that it has failed and continues to fail. It has failed to deliver on conservation and has not protected fish stocks. At the same time, it has failed to provide an adequate sustainable living for our fishing communities. That is why the United Kingdom has been at the forefront in calling for radical reform of the policy. The Fisheries Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), will be pressing for fundamental changes to the policy at the forthcoming negotiations, to simplify and decentralise fisheries management. However, as was pointed out in an intervention from the Democratic Unionist Benches, when we talk about decentralisation, it is important that we take account of the interests of the devolved Administrations in the different parts of the United Kingdom.

Ian Paisley Jnr: rose -

David Lidington: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, given the time allowed, I must first try to do justice to the points raised in the debate.
	What we are pressing for will mean member states taking more responsibility for management decisions, and working together regionally to agree appropriate measures. It will also mean giving member states the tools to apply conservation measures, and holding them to account for implementing these, regardless of which nations fish in their waters. A draft proposal for reform of the CFP is due to be published in May or June this year, but so far there is no indication, in any of the many discussions that have taken place on the subject, that the Commission will propose changes to the powers of member states in relation to nautical limits. I can assure my hon. Friends and the hon. Member for Great Grimsby that the Government would vigorously oppose any such move on the part of the Commission.
	However, in respect of amendment 81, I should say to my hon. Friend the Member for Witham that, for better or worse, the European Union has had competence over fisheries matters for more than 30 years, so there is no transfer of competence from the UK to the EU involved here. Changes to the CFP are agreed by qualified majority voting and co-decision with the European Parliament. Amendment 81 could therefore result in a referendum being held on a decision that this country could not subsequently block.

Gavin Williamson: Does my right hon. Friend feel that if amendment 81 were accepted and there were a vote, and if nothing could then be done as a result of such a referendum, it would undermine the confidence of the British people in a fantastic Bill?

David Lidington: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is therefore important that we focus the referendum lock on those decisions that are of real significance to the people we represent. I understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Witham has tabled amendment 81, which has provided us with a good opportunity to debate a subject about which she cares passionately, but it would not achieve the objective that she and other Members who want reform of the CFP are seeking.
	Amendments 36, 37 and 38 would add any decision by the United Kingdom to vote in favour of, or otherwise support, measures brought forward under the justice and home affairs ratchet clauses contained in articles 81(3), 82(2)(d) and 83(1) of the TFEU to the list of measures subject to the safeguard requirements contained in clause 6 of the Bill. Amendment 40 has a similar effect to amendment 36, but seeks to achieve it by adding article 81(3) to the list of treaty provisions in schedule 1. What those amendments seek is a referendum, rather than such provisions being made under the Bill.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), speaking in support of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), broadened the debate into matters of justice and home affairs more generally. I hope that we will get the opportunity to debate those matters tomorrow, but I will respond briefly to the important points that he made. I know that his concerns are shared by many other Members.
	On justice and home affairs opt-ins, we are talking about something that, like it or not, is a matter of existing European Union competence. However, where we have a choice, we cannot be compelled to take part in a particular measure. Furthermore-this affects how we deal with our systems for requiring scrutiny and accountability-where there is a three-month time limit, during which the United Kingdom has to decide whether to take part in the final negotiations on the shape of the legislative measure, that will impose a practical limit on what we can do while still keeping open the option on whether to join in.
	I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere that the policy of the coalition is to consider on a case-by-case basis whether we should opt into a measure or not, and to judge each decision on its merits. There will be occasions when it will be in the national interest of the United Kingdom for us to take part. I would use the example of passenger name records to illustrate that. The United Kingdom Government are pressing the Commission and other member states to introduce measures on that, because we, along with the Government of the United States and a number of European partners, believe that such a measure would help all European countries and the international community generally to strengthen our counter-terrorist policies and provide a means of giving greater assurance of safety to our citizens when they travel by air. So we need to look at these measures on a case-by-case basis.
	On scrutiny, as I said in my written ministerial statement of last Thursday, we are proposing not to reduce or limit existing scrutiny powers but to add to them. The minimum that the Government would offer is a written ministerial statement on each decision and, for more important measures, an oral statement. When there was an especially strong parliamentary interest, the Government would commit to setting aside their time for a debate in both Houses on a motion supporting the Government's approach. Such a motion would, of course, be amendable.
	I believe that it would generally be right for such debates to be called when it was proposed to opt into a measure that would have a substantial impact on this country's civil or criminal law, on our national security or on our immigration policy. I can say to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere that it is certainly our view that, under the policy that I announced last week, the European investigation order would indeed have been referred for a debate of that kind. As he knows, the Commons scrutiny Committee had not been fully constituted when that decision had to be taken within the three-month time limit. I know that the Government were uneasy about the fact that the non-existence of the Committee meant that we could not go through the appropriate scrutiny procedures.
	In sorting out the details of these matters and putting flesh on the policy that I outlined last week, there will be a need for the Government to talk to Parliament, and to the scrutiny Committees in particular, about exactly how we translate this policy into practical action. There will also be a need to deal with matters such as recess periods and periods of Dissolution. On the question of override, there will, I am afraid, occasionally be cases in which an early opt-in decision is required. There has been one such case this year, in which it was in our interests to opt into the EU-US agreement on the terrorist finance tracking programme, and we had to do that before the completion of scrutiny. We do not ever take those decisions lightly, and we always seek to keep Parliament informed when the risk of an override exists. To that end, we need to establish how these new arrangements will be managed, especially during periods of recess.
	I shall now respond in more detail to the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry. In practical terms, although the UK could block any attempt to move article 81(3) to QMV using either treaty revision procedure, we could not block the result being achieved through the use of the specific ratchet clause in article 81(3). We would simply be ejected from the measure under article 3(2) of the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice protocol, and the other member states would continue without the UK. So, in the unlikely event of the UK seeking to use either revision procedure to move article 81(3) to QMV, we could veto that and block the treaty change, but all that would happen, assuming that other member states wanted to go ahead, is that the EU would use the ratchet clause to change the legislative procedure without UK participation. On that basis, it does not seem sensible to put a referendum lock on the use of either of the treaty revision procedures to move the article 81(3) legal base to QMV, because it would not have the desired effect of stopping a move to QMV for individual measures of family law.
	Article 82(2)(d) enables the Council to add to the list of issues that can be made subject to EU legislation on criminal law procedures, and article 83(1) allows for additions to the list of criminal offences where the EU can set minimum standards. The exercise of those two articles is already foreseen; they are known entities. They add to what can be done within existing areas of EU competence, rather than creating new competences, and we expect them to be used in relatively obscure areas. For example, on the criminal side, there is a possibility that a proposal will be introduced to use the ratchet to add the crime of female genital mutilation to the list of serious crimes, where the EU can set minimum standards under article 83(1) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. We will have the choice whether to opt in or not, in line with Government policy. If we wished to opt in, each House would have to agree that it could do so within the three-month period and, before the UK could finally sign up to such a proposal, there would have to be an Act of Parliament. Should we decide not to opt into the negotiations but later decide to opt into the final decision, there would then need to be an Act of Parliament before we could do so. We believe that that is the correct level of control for such decisions, and a considerable increase on the present amount of control provided for under the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008, under which the Lisbon treaty was approved.
	I turn now to enhanced co-operation. I might want to write to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere at greater length on this, given the limited time available to me now. I can tell him, however, that we have provided that, if the UK is participating in an area of enhanced co-operation that touches on one or more of the treaty provisions listed in schedule 1 and there is a proposal to use the ratchet to allow a move from unanimity to QMV, an Act of Parliament would need to be passed and the proposed move supported in a referendum before the UK could agree to that proposal.
	My hon. Friend's amendment 13 would mean that, if the UK wanted to join in legislation agreed under an enhanced co-operation arrangement after that legislation had already been agreed by others, a referendum would be required if the smaller group had already decided to move to QMV on an article listed in schedule 1. The reason for the different approach that we are proposing in those circumstances is that the UK would be deciding whether to participate in enhanced co-operation on a specific piece of legislation, rather than on a whole area of policy, and we would be taking that decision in the full knowledge of what had already been agreed. We would be deciding freely whether to take part-we could not be forced to take part-and we would take that decision in the knowledge that any future negotiation to amend that legislation would also have to be done on the basis of QMV.
	That is different from taking a decision to move to QMV in the middle of a negotiation on a piece of legislation being agreed under enhanced co-operation to which we were already committed to taking part. That could lead to us being outvoted on the final piece of legislation, having gone into the process under different circumstances altogether. Any such decision, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere, would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the customary way. I am certainly prepared, in the context of the broader reform of scrutiny that I announced last week, to look at the particular point that he raised.
	The official Opposition's amendment 100 is simply unnecessary. The policy on the patent is already subject to qualified majority voting, apart from two areas that are subject to unanimity. We propose that those should require an Act of Parliament, not a referendum.
	To my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), I say that we are not happy with the position on the European financial stability mechanism; it is one that we inherited from the previous Government. Our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister fought hard-and successfully-at the European Council to make sure that article 122 was extinguished for the future as a source of bail-outs for other countries. I ask my hon. Friend to recognise, in turn, that the stability of the eurozone, and the eurozone's success in solving its serious problems, are in our interests, too.
	 Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 7  December ).
	 The C hair put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the amendment be made.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Amendment made.
	 The Chair then put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No.  83D  ).
	 Amendment made: 58, page 4, line 39, at end insert
	'and for the purposes of subsection (2A) as references to a notification'.- (Mr  Lidington .)
	 Amendment proposed : 100, in page 5, line 27, after '(enhanced co-operation)', insert
	'except in the field of EU patents'.- (Emma  Reynolds .)

Question put, That the amendment be made.
	 The Committee divided: Ayes 215, Noes 334.

Question accordingly negatived.
	 Amendment proposed: 8, page 5, line 35, at end insert-
	'(l) a decision to extend the use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism to member states other than the Republic of Ireland.'.- (Mr Cash.)
	 Question put, That the amendment be made.
	 The Committee divided: Ayes 31, Noes 324.

Question accordingly negatived.
	 Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 1
	 — 
	Treaty provisions where amendment removing need for unanimity, consensus or common accord would attract referendum

Amendment made: 60, page 13, leave out lines 15 to 22 and insert-
	'Chapter 2 of Title V (specific provisions on the common foreign and security policy).'.- (Mr Lidington.)
	 Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11
	 — 
	Persons entitled to vote in referendum

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

David Lidington: It would be helpful if, by way of introduction, I gave a brief explanation of our approach to how the referendum provisions in the Bill would work-the referendum mechanics, in other words. I stress that provision for the conduct of UK referendums on all issues, including those in the Bill, is set out in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. That statute covers the overall regulatory framework applying to referendums and sets conditions in relation to the referendum period, the date of the poll, the wording of questions, the role of the Electoral Commission in commenting on the intelligibility of those questions to ensure that questions are "clear, simple and neutral", and the conditions to be set in relation to the registration of campaign organisations and for financial and other assistance to be given to designated individuals or organisations. For this purpose, the Act allows the Electoral Commission to designate one individual or organisation for each possible outcome of a particular referendum, which could include political parties, and to award them a public grant of up to £600,000 and other benefits.
	In addition, the provisions of the PPERA impose financial controls on the expenditure and income of campaigning individuals or organisations that are not political parties. They place controls on referendum publications by Government and others, and make provision for enabling secondary legislation to be made for the conduct of referendum polls. Those provisions in the PPERA would apply to any referendum conducted under the terms of the Bill and, as the Committee knows, the referendum proposed in the Bill on the parliamentary voting system. Similarly, any amendment to, or replacement of, the PPERA in the future would correspondingly apply to any referendums held under the Bill.
	The PPERA, however, does not cover matters that are inherently specific to a particular referendum. Those include the precise wording of the question, the date of the referendum, its franchise, or the precise length of what is termed the referendum period, which is that period during which campaign expenditure is regulated. The Act does not cover how challenges to the referendum result are to be handled, the payment of counting officers, or the conduct of the referendum-for example, decisions on locations, opening hours of polling stations, permitted size of posters and any electoral offences related to the holding of a referendum.
	When considering how many of these specific issues to address in the Bill and how many to leave for a specific Bill at the time of a particular referendum, the Government took account of our commitment in the coalition agreement that there would be no further transfer of competence or power from the United Kingdom to the EU over the course of this Parliament. Logically, therefore, there will be no referendums about the transfer of competence or power until 2015 at the earliest, as there would be no such transfers on which the British people should be asked to opine. But as I made clear in earlier debates on the Bill, any proposed treaty change even during this Parliament would none the less be subject to the rigours of this legislation-a statement would have to be laid before Parliament setting out the Government's analysis on competence and whether any transfers of power would result, and that treaty change would still require Parliament's clear approval through primary legislation.

Wayne David: May I take the Minister back to what he was saying about the Electoral Commission and possible financial support to those putting forward a case for or against an issue under consideration? A referendum is due to take place in Wales on 3 March and, because there is no recognised body advocating a no vote, no finances are being given in that direction, but that means that no finances have been given to those who support a yes vote. Could a similar thing happen to any referendums that the Minister is outlining?

David Lidington: We would certainly want to avoid that and would look at the experience that the hon. Gentleman describes. It is important to recall that the principle of grants being made available for lead campaign organisations was recommended by the independent Committee on Standard in Public Life and approved by Parliament in legislation passed under the previous Labour Government in 2000. I hope that he agrees that it would not be in the public interest for one side in a referendum campaign to be able to outspend the other hugely. A grant ensures that both lead campaign organisations can campaign effectively and that helps the public make an informed choice.
	I emphasise that the Bill is not intended to serve as a vehicle for providing for all the detailed referendum rules required to supplement the provisions already contained in the PPERA. That is because we cannot anticipate exactly what referendums might be required in the future, when they would be held or, indeed, what the relevant electoral and referendum law would look like at that time. I do not want to write on tablets of stone arrangements that could prove to be at odds with a subsequent change in general electoral legislation. Therefore, we cannot provide everything on the convening of those specific referendums in the Bill. Rather, it sets out the circumstances in which those referendums would have to be held.

Charlie Elphicke: On the issue of who can vote in referendums, I notice that specific mention is made of the right of the people of Gibraltar to have a say in a referendum. It seems to me that they would like to be part of the United Kingdom for many purposes when it comes to European matters. Would it not be right to allow them more of a chance to have a say?

David Lidington: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Of course, we must look at the question of whether the franchise for a particular referendum should include the people of Gibraltar in the context of whether it would affect Gibraltar. As he will appreciate, although Gibraltar is in most respects treated as part of the EU, some parts of the treaties do not apply to it. It is therefore right that the Bill specifies that the electorate in a referendum should include the people of Gibraltar when the subject matter of that referendum also applies to them. To provide further reassurance, I call tell him that I have consulted the Chief Minister of Gibraltar formally and discussed the matter with him face to face, and he has assured me that he is content with the arrangements for Gibraltar as set out in the Bill.

Christopher Pincher: This is not the time to talk about changes to the Representation of the People Act 2000, although it is probably the place, but the Minister will be aware of the great concern here and in the country about extending the right to vote to prisoners. My understanding from the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights is that that applies only to general and European Parliament elections, so is it not possible to include in the Bill a specific disfranchisement of prisoners, who otherwise would have an opportunity to vote on constitutional matters?

David Lidington: As my hon. Friend knows, the Government are considering how to comply with the Court's decision. Article 3 of the first protocol of the European convention on human rights sets out the right to vote in elections. Importantly, that right extends to elections to legislatures, within the meaning of article 3, so we are not under an obligation to enfranchise prisoners for local elections or referendums, and the policy is that we will not do so. The Government accept the need, as did our predecessor, to change the law to give some prisoners the vote in the light of the Court's judgment. The right to vote will be restricted to UK Westminster parliamentary and European Parliament elections only.

Charlie Elphicke: The European Court of Human Rights ruled on prisoner voting in, I believe, Hirst  v. the United Kingdom. Despite what my right hon. Friend says, and given that case, how can we be confident that an element of judicial activism will not enable prisoners to vote on a referendum question?

David Lidington: My hon. Friend is perfectly right to be alert to any sign of judicial activism, but I assure him that one thing that will be very much on the mind of our right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Justice is to devise a policy that takes us forward in compliance with the judgment while keeping to the minimum the risks that my hon. Friend fears.
	We recognise the need to ensure that Parliament and the British people have a degree of clarity now about any referendums that will take place under this Bill in future. We want to provide as much clarity as we can from the outset in order to reduce any scope for wriggle-room, and we therefore propose specific measures in this Bill to ensure that any referendums held under it are to some extent standardised. Clauses 11 to 13 include three mechanical provisions for every referendum to be held in future.
	Clause 11 concerns the franchise for any future referendum held under the terms of the Bill. The most appropriate franchise for future referendums on questions of transfers of competence or powers from this country to the EU is one based on that for elections to this House, rather than on that for either local government elections or European parliamentary elections, for example. If we were to adopt an alternative franchise, we would allow for voting by citizens of other European Union countries resident in the UK, and that would sit rather oddly with the principle of having the British people decide on whether they wish to pursue further transfers of power from their country to Brussels.

Robert Buckland: Will the franchise for voting in a referendum under this legislation be extended to peers, whether or not they are Members of the House of Lords?

David Lidington: I do not know whether this delights my hon. Friend, but peers would be able to vote in a referendum; it might well delight Members of the other place. The purpose of the referendum would be to obtain views about the transfer of competence or power from the UK to the European Union, and the Government do not consider there to be a strong, principled reason for excluding peers from expressing their views as part of such an exercise. We therefore propose the same franchise as that used for the European Economic Community referendum in 1975 and that which will be used for the referendum on the voting system for UK parliamentary elections, namely the parliamentary franchise plus peers.

Charlie Elphicke: One concern that I have about using the referendum mechanism is that it does not contain thresholds. Recently we had before this House a Bill, which has become jammed in another place, where thresholds were discussed. Does the Minister not think that, in the case under discussion, thresholds might surely be worth considering?

Graham Brady: Order. That is outside the scope of the clause, which is about people who are entitled to vote.

David Lidington: I shall bear your guidance very firmly in mind, Mr Brady, and simply say that the Government do not propose to specify in this legislation any further thresholds on the turnout.
	In response to my hon. Friend, I mentioned the Government's reasons why the franchise should be extended, where relevant, to Gibraltar, but it is worth me explaining, because there has been some concern in the House, why people from the Crown dependencies and British overseas territories will not be included in the franchise. Very little EU law applies to the Crown dependencies, mainly because of the provisions of our Act of accession to the then EEC in 1972, and also because of the current provisions of the European Union treaties. By virtue of article 355(5)(c) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, the European Union treaties apply to the Crown dependencies, but only to the extent described in protocol 3, which provides that EU rules on customs matters and quantitative restrictions apply to the Crown dependencies
	"under the same conditions as they apply to the United Kingdom",
	that the Crown dependencies are inside the EU customs territory and that certain aspects of the common agricultural policy are applicable to allow the free movement of agricultural products.
	Provisions on the free movement of persons and services do not apply to the Crown dependencies. The people of the dependencies benefit from those provisions in the rest of the EU only if they have close ties with the UK-for example if they, their parent or grandparent were born, adopted or naturalised in the UK, or if they have
	"at any time been ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom for five years."
	The Crown dependencies neither contribute to nor are eligible to benefit from EU funds. They are not subject to EU measures on taxation, nor are they for any purposes within the EU's fiscal territory. Unlike the citizens of Gibraltar, citizens of the Crown dependencies do not vote in European parliamentary elections.
	Overseas territories other than Gibraltar are not members of the European Union, but all apart from Bermuda and the sovereign base areas have a special relationship or association with the European Union. That association is enshrined in European legislation, most recently in the Council's 2001 overseas association decision, under which qualifying territories are eligible for European development fund finance. Neither the Crown dependencies nor the overseas territories are looking for closer political integration with the EU, and through official-level engagement with colleagues in the Crown dependencies, we have not received any representations to consider their inclusion in the franchise for any referendum conducted in accordance with this legislation.

David Nuttall: The explanatory notes on clause 11-perhaps we ought to refer to them as the first edition of the explanatory notes-state:
	"A person who is entitled to vote in a parliamentary election in the UK must be a British citizen, Commonwealth citizen, a citizen of the Republic of Ireland or a British citizen who qualifies as an overseas elector."
	Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is rather strange that all those classes of people will be entitled to vote under the Bill, but not necessarily, from what he has said, people from British overseas territories?

David Lidington: Our position is that people who are resident in the United Kingdom and who are enfranchised for general elections will count legally as UK nationals for European purposes. That is the electorate, with the addition of peers, that we envisage for any referendum that is required under the terms of the Bill. The distinction that I tried to make earlier-I apologise to my hon. Friend if I did not explain myself with sufficient clarity-was between Gibraltarians living in Gibraltar, who would be entitled to vote if the subject matter of the referendum affected Gibraltar, and citizens of Crown dependencies or British overseas territories living in those places. An analogy might be made between those people and citizens of Gibraltar, but as I have tried to explain, the relationship of the Crown dependencies and other British overseas territories with the EU is very different from that enjoyed by Gibraltar.

Charlie Elphicke: I hate to press the cause of the people of Gibraltar, but I understand that for the purposes of elections to the European Parliament, the people of Gibraltar are able to vote for Members of the European Parliament for the south-west region. Given that they can vote in elections for that Parliament for all purposes in the European arena, surely they should be able to vote on referendum questions for all purposes.

David Lidington: No, I think that we have drawn a fair distinction by saying that it is right to confine the electorate for a referendum that does not affect Gibraltar to people in the UK who are entitled to vote in UK elections, and to say that Gibraltar should be allowed to vote when the issue in question affects it. I repeat to my hon. Friend that the Chief Minister of Gibraltar has assured me that he is perfectly content with what we are proposing.
	The franchise proposed in clause 11 is also referred to elsewhere in the Bill, namely in clauses 2 and 3. I believe that what we propose is proportionate and justified to ensure that citizens in both the UK and Gibraltar who would be affected by a treaty change, or by a decision that would transfer power or competence from this country to the EU, could express their view in a referendum.

Emma Reynolds: I have just two questions of clarification for the Minister and to ask him whether he can confirm that the Government will not repeat the recent mistakes on the alternative vote referendum. First, will they commit to consulting the devolved Administrations regarding the timing of any referendum triggered by the Bill? Secondly, will he make a commitment today that any such referendum would not take place on the same day as the devolved Assemblies elections?

David Lidington: We will not give a commitment about specific dates for referendums that are not going to be held before 2015 at the earliest. There are advantages and disadvantages to holding referendums on the same days as other elections, and it is certainly considerably less expensive to the taxpayer if a referendum can be combined with a ballot for other purposes.

Nicholas Boles: In the United States, where much more use is made of local referendums in states such as California, do not such votes almost always take place on the same day as gubernatorial, mayoral or House of Representatives elections? What America understands, which we somehow fail to understand, is that people are perfectly capable of distinguishing between different questions and quite like being asked to go to the polls only once.

David Lidington: My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I suspect that a number of Members of all parties can recall occasions when both a general election and a local government election of some kind have been held on the same day in the same place. We have found that our electors have been perfectly capable of deciding to split the ticket if that is what they wish to do.

Nigel Dodds: As far as Northern Ireland is concerned-I cannot speak for Scotland or Wales-the objection has always been to the idea of a general election for Westminster and for the Northern Ireland Assembly on the same date. There has not really been the same objection to holding a referendum or a local government election on the same date as the Northern Ireland Assembly election. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) about people not having to go out to vote over and over again, and we have certainly had plenty of experience of that in Northern Ireland over the years.

David Lidington: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments.
	The other point that a future Government would have to bear in mind in determining a referendum date would be whether there was any particular urgency to a treaty or passerelle proposal that required a referendum. In normal circumstances the various national ratification procedures take quite a bit of time, and if there were a proposal under the ordinary revision proposal, it is probable that more than one member state would have to have a referendum. There would therefore be quite a long period between agreement at European Council level and ratification by all 27 member states, or more by then, I hope. However, it is conceivable that there may be a particular need for urgency, and the Government of the day would have to bear that in mind.
	The other point that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) made was about the relationship with the devolved Administrations. The Government take that seriously, and we have regular formal meetings with them about Europe through the joint ministerial committee on Europe. I am also in contact with Ministers in each of the devolved Administrations. I can assure her and the Committee that they never hesitate to bring their concerns to me. We would certainly want to continue that process of consultation, bearing their interests in mind.

Wayne David: I welcome the Minister's partial reassurance, but may I press him on it? The important thing is for this Government proactively to lead consultation with the devolved Administrations. He should not simply wait for them to make representations to him.

David Lidington: We try to do both. We in the Government can pride ourselves on enjoying a rather better relationship with the devolved Administrations than the previous Government were usually able to manage.

Nigel Dodds: It is key not only that Ministers from the devolved regions make representations and that the Minister proactively instigates consultation, but that when representations are made, they are listened to and taken seriously, and that the respect agenda is followed.

David Lidington: The right hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly fair point. He will know that the Prime Minister personally takes the respect agenda very seriously and that he is determined that his Government pursue it. I hope that the Committee agrees to clause 11.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 12
	 — 
	Separate questions

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

David Lidington: Clause 12 provides that separate questions should be set out on a referendum ballot paper in specified circumstances. You will not need reminding, Mr Hoyle, that it is this Government's clear commitment not to agree to any treaty change or decision to transfer power or competence during this Parliament, but if and when the time comes to hold a referendum under the Bill, nothing in the legislation prevents more than one referendum from being held on separate but coincident treaties or decisions on the same day, or the combination of a referendum with another poll.
	As the Committee is aware, a combined poll is the Government's intention when it comes to the referendum on the parliamentary voting system. As I explained in relation to a previous clause, the rules that govern whether such a combination could take place for referendums under the Bill are provided for in the overarching legislation-the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000-and we recognise that the Electoral Commission would have an opinion on what combinations would be feasible.
	There are considerable savings to be made in terms of money, disruption and people's time if polls are combined, but in addition, as my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) pointed out, the electorate often wish to combine different voting opportunities on a single day. People do not really relish the task of having to traipse to the polling station more frequently than they regard as necessary.
	The Electoral Commission has previously said that it would consider on a case-by-case basis proposals to combine different ballots on the same day. The Government believe that that is a sensible approach. We therefore do not seek to make any specific provision in the Bill, particularly as we do not know at this stage when any future referendums will be proposed.
	Clause 12 would ensure-should more than one referendum be proposed for the same day-that it is not possible to set a single combined question on all of the issues to be decided upon that day. People have a right to the utmost clarity and choice, and the clause sets a standard that we intend will provide that.
	To give an example, if a future Government ever took the step of proposing that the United Kingdom should join the single currency, and separately took the decision to give up our border controls, and if those two referendums were to be held on the same day for reasons of efficiency, the question on joining the euro would be separate from the question on giving up our border controls. There would be two separate questions on the ballot paper and two separate results, because obviously, some people might wish to support one proposition but to oppose the other.

David Nuttall: I can quite easily see how it would be a significant saving to the public purse to have more than one referendum held on the same day, and I have no doubt that our fellow citizens are more than capable of determining two complex questions at the same time and on the same day. Does my hon. Friend agree that, for ease of counting if for nothing else, it would be preferable if the two questions put before the electorate were on separate ballot papers, possibly even of differently coloured paper? That would make it far easier for the returning officers to sort the ballot papers and determine the outcome of the ballot.

David Lidington: My hon. Friend makes a sensible suggestion, and I am sure that the Government of the day and the Electoral Commission would wish to take it into account in framing the rules for any particular referendum or combination of referendums.

Nigel Dodds: I agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), and the Minister has said that it will be taken into account, but the clause states that
	"a separate question must be included on the ballot paper"-
	singular. If this clause is passed in its current form, we will not have the flexibility or freedom to have a separate arrangement. Having separate ballots is a good idea, given the experience in Scotland at the last Assembly and parliamentary elections, when the fact that there were different elections on the same ballot paper was the problem.

David Lidington: There is a principle in the interpretation of the law that the singular can include the plural. If the wording proved to be an obstacle to what the Government of the day and the Electoral Commission considered to be the best way to operate a referendum, it would certainly be open for a change to be made in the Bill authorising the referendum. I am prepared to have a look at that question between now and Report. I am reasonably confident that we would not run into the problems that the right hon. Gentleman described, but I am prepared to seek detailed advice and come back to it on Report.

Christopher Pincher: I suspect that the number of occasions on which multiple referendum questions are on the ballot paper will be quite rare, but on those occasions will the Government agree to spend more money to publicise the referendum and allow campaigning organisations more money to spend campaigning for or against the questions? The more questions on the ballot paper, the more complex the issues are and the more money needs to be spent to explain them.

David Lidington: That is one of the very good reasons for not trying to cover all the ground in this Bill. That kind of detail will be a matter for the application of the 2000 Act or its successor statute, and for the Government of the day to authorise a referendum or combination of referendums. That might depend, for example, on whether one lead campaign organisation could be said fairly to represent the views of the yes or no camp on more than one referendum, or whether separate lead organisations were needed. It is reasonable for my hon. Friend to ask those questions, but answers to them can be provided only when we come to consider a specific case in due course.

David Nuttall: Does that not lead us to the interesting question of whether there is a practical maximum number of referendums that could be held on the same day? I can understand how we could deal with two, but it gets rather complicated if there are more than two. We could have three different organisations with three separate streams of funding from the Electoral Commission, and soon the whole thing would begin to look rather unwieldy.

David Lidington: Although one can never guarantee against the utterly implausible happening, the scenario that my hon. Friend describes would require a commitment of political energy on the part of every EU member state, because the decisions subject to a referendum require unanimity among member state Governments. Furthermore, he assumes that the UK Government of the time would be prepared to accept and recommend to the people three different treaty changes, or the implementation of three different passerelle clauses, or some combination of those on a single occasion. That is unlikely in the extreme.
	A more plausible scenario-although I do not think, from talking to my colleagues on the Council of Ministers, that people have any appetite for this at the moment-if European countries wanted an ambitious treaty change covering a number of different competencies, would be to seek treaty amendment through the ordinary revision procedure. That is the instrument available to the EU for an ambitious, wide-ranging treaty change along the pattern of Lisbon, Nice, Amsterdam and Maastricht. In those circumstances, the total proposal for a treaty amendment-regardless of which city it was named after-would be the subject of a single referendum question. It is most unlikely, therefore, that there would be a multiplicity of narrowly focused referendum questions, given the availability of that instrument.

Nicholas Boles: On a related point, it is dangerous ever to underestimate the deviousness of those who wish to build the grand European project-of course, they are entirely honourable in this, because they believe that their aims are honourable. However, would it not be conceivable that a Government-a future Labour Government, probably-who wanted, for example to set up a set of common European defence forces to replace our national defence forces, might agree a treaty in which they also agreed to repeal the common fisheries policy, which Conservative Members would strongly support? Would we then have a single vote on a single treaty that combined some elements that this country would strongly support and other elements that it would find very difficult? Or would the Government still be able to separate the different elements of the treaty and ask separate questions?

David Lidington: No, in the circumstances that my hon. Friend describes, in which an omnibus treaty amendment is delivered under the ordinary revision procedure, there would be a single question. It would be ridiculous for the Government to present that to the people as a number of different questions, because the Government, on behalf of the United Kingdom, would have to ratify the entire package en bloc, or refuse to ratify it en bloc. The negotiation would have resulted in a compromise among member states on something to which they all felt able to give their assent, and they would all have to be accountable to their respective electorates for that overall decision.

Charlie Elphicke: On this matter of referendums being held on the same day, will the Minister explain the revenue implications of separate referendums on separate days?

David Lidington: As I said in response to an earlier intervention, if different decisions about treaty amendments were being taken at roughly the same time-I imagine that they would be either passerelle clause decisions or simplified revision procedure decisions-it might well be sensible to combine the referendums on those measures on the same day. The public would get pretty impatient with Parliament if we suggested that should they pop down to the polling station every other Thursday to put their cross in the box for yet another referendum proposal. They would quite rightly be asking why we were requiring their local authorities, as the electoral registration authorities-and ultimately them as taxpayers-to go to such expense and bother on so many different occasions. I would suggest to my hon. Friend that common sense would prevail, regardless of which party was in office.

Charlie Elphicke: rose-

David Lidington: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I want to make a bit of progress. In particular, I want to deliver a bit of good news to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), to whom I am always pleased to give good news. Advice has reached me that confirms the point that I made to him somewhat tentatively when I responded to his intervention. The law does indeed make it clear that when it comes to the interpretation of statutes, the singular can be interpreted to mean the plural. Under the language that we have used in the clause, it will be possible to have either one ballot paper with multiple questions or several different ballot papers, depending on the circumstances at the time. That would obviously be a detailed decision that the Government of the day would have to make, taking, I would very much hope, the advice of the Electoral Commission into account.
	It should be noted that neither clause 12 nor any other clause in the Bill sets any other explicit parameters on the framing of the question. However, it is a condition separately in clauses 2, 3 and 6 that, for a proposal in a referendum to be passed, the majority of those voting should be in favour of the ratification of the treaty or approval of the decision, whichever it may be. That condition would logically require that the question be framed as a simple choice between two options, rather than a menu of options to which the responses would be much more difficult to interpret. In other words, it is implicit in the Bill that the question would be a binary one. It is the Government's clear view that this should be the case for all and any referendums held under the provisions of the Bill.

David Nuttall: On the binary question, and whether we should have no/yes or yes/no, does the Minister agree that it is rather unusual that whereas individuals standing in an election are listed on the ballot paper in alphabetical order based on their surnames, when it comes to a referendum, for some reason the yes comes before the no? That is rather odd. I think that the no should be first and that the yes should come second.

David Lidington: I am sure that my hon. Friend means well, but I would urge him to have more confidence in our fellow citizens. In particular, I would point him to the referendum on the proposed assembly for the north-east of England. A yes vote was strongly supported by the then Labour Government, as well as enjoying the support of quite a number of public organisations in the north-east of England, but the proposition was resoundingly rejected by the public when it came to the ballot in that region. It is a good old Tory principle to trust the people, and I think that we should be content with that.

David Nuttall: I want to make it absolutely clear that I entirely agree with the principle of trusting the people. I have no doubt whatever that the people of this country are more than capable of working out which is which. I just thought it was rather odd that the "yes" should appear above the "no", and I wondered whether there was any reason why that should be so.

David Lidington: As far as I am aware, there is no particular reason for it. However, the Electoral Commission will have a duty to comment on the question that the Government of the day have chosen, and I am sure that, if the Commission felt that placing "yes" above "no" gave an unfair advantage in some way, it would so opine and the Government would take account of that. It is quite difficult to envisage a ballot paper that did not have either "yes" or "no" at the top of the paper. At the end of the day, it comes down to a choice by the people: they have two options available to them, and I think that they will know which side they are on when it comes to the vote.

Wayne David: I am tempted to ask the Minister whether Welsh will appear above English on the ballot papers in Wales, but I will not. Is there anything in the legislation that would prevent the Government from going back to the electorate if a no vote had been secured when the Government clearly wanted a yes vote? Could the question be put to the electorate for a second time, and, if so, what period would have to elapse before that could happen?

David Lidington: The Bill makes it very clear that the referendum condition has to be satisfied, in the circumstances in which the law requires a referendum to be held, before the Government are able to ratify the proposed treaty. I simply do not believe that any British Government who had been defeated at a referendum would then come forward and say to their electorate, "No, you've got it wrong. Let's dissolve the people and have a new one!" That really does not make political sense.

Wayne David: This is an important, although admittedly hypothetical, point. However, let us not forget what happened recently in Ireland.

David Lidington: What happened in Ireland was that the Irish Government went back to their EU partners and received various assurances, which were incorporated into a protocol to the treaties. We can debate whether the Irish Government were right or wrong to be satisfied by those assurances, but I actually think that it is a matter for the Irish people, not for me, to decide. In such slightly far-fetched, hypothetical circumstances, were a British Government to do as the hon. Gentleman suggests, they would have to bring the protocol back here and go through the entire process again, including the assessment of the ministerial declaration and the Act of Parliament. There would then have to be a new referendum. I just think that any Government who tried to do that would be punished so severely by the people every time they got the opportunity to go to the ballot box that it would be the last thing on any Minister's mind.

David Nuttall: Will the Minister give way?

David Lidington: Before I give way to my hon. Friend, may I just say that I am very conscious that we have another important clause to consider, if we can, before the 10 o'clock deadline?

David Nuttall: I, too, am conscious of that. The Minister says that the Irish situation was a rare occurrence, but he will be aware that it also occurred in Denmark and France. It is therefore not all that unusual in the European Union for second referendums to be held on the same or a very similar question.

David Lidington: I go back to what I said earlier: I trust the people. If a Government wanted to ask people to vote again, they would have to go through the entire procedure again-assuming that a new protocol or slightly revised treaty wording were involved-as well as having to persuade a pretty sceptical electorate that they should change their mind. I think that my hon. Friend is at risk of exaggerating the likelihood of those circumstances arising. While I do not think that the loss of a referendum vote on a European treaty amendment should determine whether a Government should fall, it would undoubtedly be a very severe political blow to that Government.
	Once this Bill becomes law, I think the pressure will be the reverse of what my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North fears, as the pressure will be on any British incumbent Government to be very confident that they can carry support among the electorate for a treaty reform transferring new powers or competences to the European Union before they agree to it at the European Council. The arrangements we are putting in place thus provide safeguards against what my hon. Friend fears.
	In any event, the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 requires the Electoral Commission to consider the wording of any referendum question when a Bill to provide for the holding of a poll is introduced in Parliament. In the case of a draft instrument, the Secretary of State is required to consult the Electoral Commission on the wording of the referendum question before any such draft is laid before Parliament for approval, and he or she is then required to lay before each House a report stating any views as to the intelligibility of that question which the Commission has expressed in response to the consultation. We have not sought to disapply that requirement, as we think the Electoral Commission plays an important role in ensuring both the neutrality of the question and that it is correctly and easily understood by voters.
	Under PPERA, the Electoral Commission is required to consider the wording of the referendum questions for UK, national and regional referendums and for some local government referendums. Having done so, it is required to publish the statement of its views as soon as practicable and in such a manner as it may determine. Helpfully, the commission has developed guidelines to aid the drafting of intelligible referendum questions. In these, it says that a referendum question should present the options clearly, simply and neutrally so that it is easy to understand, to the point and unambiguous; and should avoid-I hope this helps my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North-encouraging voters to consider one response more favourably than another, and avoid misleading voters. In reaching its conclusions, the Electoral Commission adopts a systematic and thorough approach, which now has the advantage of some considerable experience behind it. It is also important that it publishes a report of methodology to enhance transparency and its credibility.
	Clause 12 is thus a proportionate and sustainable provision to ensure that the voice of the British people can be heard on each question asked of the people. That, in turn, will help us with our commitment to rebuild the trust between Government, Parliament and the people, and to reconnect our people with decisions taken in their name on our continuing relationship with the European Union. For those reasons, the clause should stand part of the Bill.

Charlie Elphicke: I want to make a few brief points and hope that the Minister will come back to me on them. I note that after the Scottish elections of 2007, the Gould report concluded that it was preferable for referendum questions not be done as a multiplicity, but to be put separately after separate campaigns. I am particularly concerned because there has been a tendency on the part of some Governments to play somewhat fast and loose on whether there should be a referendum at all or, indeed, in respect of asking loaded questions. We need to be careful to ensure that if there is a combination of questions, the key issues are not edged together and confused, leading to a muddle in the public's minds. That is a serious and substantial concern, so I would be grateful if the Minister would respond to it.
	Also, I was not being frivolous when I asked the Minister how much it would cost if referendums were held on separate days-leaving aside the annoyance that voters might feel in being called time and again to the polls.

David Lidington: On my hon. Friend's second point, I do not have precise figures. Clearly, our experience of national UK referendums is limited-the last being in 1975, as the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) has frequently reminded us today. The referendum on the voting system planned for later this year will no doubt give us some guidance. I am happy to write to my hon. Friend if I acquire any firmer indication of what the costs might be. Clearly, there would be financial advantages in combining more than one poll, whether it be a combination of referendums or of a referendum and a local or devolved election on the same day.
	Let me say in fairness to the Gould report, to which my hon. Friend alluded, that although it criticised what happened in 2007, it also recognised that there were benefits in the combination of polls, such as reduced costs and a higher turnout. A well-managed referendum, involving close co-operation between us and the Electoral Commission and others, should allow us to maximise those benefits while avoiding the problems that undoubtedly occurred in 2007. Let me emphasise again, however, that the decision would need to be taken in the future, and would depend on the circumstances at the time.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Clause 12 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 13
	 — 
	Role of Electoral Commission

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

David Lidington: Clause 13 covers the role of the independent Electoral Commission in the administering of any future referendums held under the Bill. The clause would supplement the existing provisions of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. The Neill committee originally suggested the establishment of such a commission to supervise the restrictions on spending by, and donations to, both political parties and third parties.
	As I have explained, we have not sought to disapply or replace any of the general provisions of PPERA. There is, of course, nothing to prevent Parliament doing so in any legislation that might be needed for a referendum in future, in order to reflect the context and the circumstances in which that referendum would be held. Significantly, however, the Act contains no provision to confer on the Electoral Commission power to promote public awareness and understanding of the subject matter of referendums.
	We feel that, as part of the Government's firm commitment to helping to rebuild trust and reconnect the British people to decisions made in their name on the European Union, it is important that the administration of any future referendum to be held under this Bill facilitate the understanding and clarity required to enable the British people to make informed decisions on whether or not to approve a treaty change or decision that would transfer power or competence from Britain to Brussels. Clause 13 provides that if a referendum is triggered under the EU Bill, the Electoral Commission has an obligation to take whatever steps it thinks appropriate to promote public awareness of the referendum and how to vote in it.

Wayne David: I hear what the Minister says about an appropriate public debate and a high degree of awareness, but the clause states that the Electoral Commission
	"may take whatever steps they think appropriate".
	If the Minister thinks that public awareness is so important, why did he not ensure that the word "will" was used rather than the word "may"?

David Lidington: The Electoral Commission was rightly established as an independent body. I think it important for the Government not to issue instructions to it, and to be seen not to do so. Given that the commission's value to our political process is by virtue of its being a completely independent statutory body, I consider it right for us to give it these new powers without laying down rules requiring it to use them in a particular way. It is for the commission to make its own judgments. How it chooses to promote awareness is rightly a matter for it, but we are giving it a statutory duty to promote awareness before any referendum held under the provisions of the Bill.

David Nuttall: Perhaps I can help the Minister. Clause 13(a) says that the commission
	"must take whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness"
	of the existence of the referendum, but
	"may take whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness of the subject-matter of the referendum."
	I suggest to the Minister that that may mean giving appropriate amounts of money to the yes campaign and to the no campaign.

David Lidington: My hon. Friend's helpful intervention will probably have given some reassurance to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David).
	We are seeking to encourage greater participation, and providing clarity so that the people know what they would be voting for regardless of which way they choose to vote. We are following the practice adopted for the North East assembly referendum in 2004, and the approach taken in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.
	If I may, I refer the hon. Member for Caerphilly to the 2003 enabling Act for the north-east regional assemblies referendum. It included clause 8, supplementary to PPERA, on "encouraging voting", and that-
	 Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 7 December).
	 The Chair put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the clause stand part of the Bill.
	 Question agreed to.
	 Clause 13 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
	 The occupant of the Chair left the Chair (Programme Order, 7 December.)
	 The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
	 Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow.

Business without Debate

EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS

Cotonou Agreement

Motion made, and Question put forthwith  (Standing Order No. 119(11) ),
	That this House takes note of European Union Document Second Revision of the Cotonou Agreement-Agreement Consolidated Text March 2010 and supports this important revision of the key principles supporting implementation of the broader development agenda between the EU and the ACP countries . -( Mr Vara. )
	 Question agreed to.

RAF LEUCHARS

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. -(Mr Vara.)

Menzies Campbell: I am glad to have the opportunity to initiate the debate on the future of Royal Air Force Leuchars, which lies near St Andrews in my constituency of North East Fife. A number of other hon. Members have indicated a wish to make short interventions, and I am happy that they should do so. In addition, I have the authority of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) to say that he supports the campaign for the retention of the base.
	I want to begin with the recognition of the professionalism and commitment of the men and women who serve at RAF Leuchars, who in recent weeks have endured a period of unnecessary anxiety. I particularly wish to pay tribute to those members of 111 Squadron, whose time at Leuchars will come to an end in March, and who have served the defence interests of the nation with distinction and effectiveness. The reason why I say "unnecessary anxiety" is this. I believe that the case for the retention of RAF Leuchars is overwhelming. In short, Leuchars is in the right place at the right time and doing the right job. Geographically, it is uniquely positioned to fulfil the responsibility for the air defence of the northern half of the United Kingdom, a responsibility which, even as we have this debate, it fulfils 24 hours a day. In particular, that responsibility now has to deal with the terrorist threat, which is recognised in the strategic defence review as a tier 1 threat, and therefore one against which the most serious precautions need to be taken.

Lindsay Roy: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that that contribution has been further strengthened by the £27 million investment in the runway, the designation of Leuchars as the home base for the Eurofighter Typhoon squadrons, and the excellent performance of the quick reaction alert force? In other words, RAF Leuchars is a strategic necessity for the effective defence of the UK.

Menzies Campbell: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I shall come to all the elements he referred to in a moment.
	Why was Leuchars chosen? It was chosen to fulfil the responsibilities that the hon. Gentleman has just described, and because 80% of the Scottish population lives within 80 miles of Leuchars. Aircraft from RAF Leuchars can be over Edinburgh and Glasgow, the two major cities of Scotland's central belt, within a matter of a few minutes. Leuchars also has the capacity to protect the two most sensitive installations within that area: the nuclear power station at Torness, and the Trident submarine base at Faslane. But we would do wrong to consider that the responsibilities of Leuchars extend only to Scotland, because the arc of responsibility of this air defence base extends far into northern England-as far as Sunderland, some have said-covering substantial populated areas.

Jim Shannon: Is it not the right hon. and learned Gentleman's understanding that the coverage also extends as far as Northern Ireland? I believe that it does, but perhaps he could give confirmation.

Menzies Campbell: I have been approaching this matter on the basis of the speed of deployment within certain arcs. I understand that the approach is to take the base as the centre and then draw a circle, but there is no doubt that, because of its operations over the sea, there may well be occasions when RAF Leuchars would be deployed for the purpose of protecting interests in Northern Ireland.
	I have heard no strategic argument for the closure of RAF Leuchars. The strategic case for its retention is exactly the same as the strategic case for its selection for the role that it now plays. It has been chosen to be the home of three Typhoon squadrons, one of which, 6 Squadron, is already in place there. It stood up on 6 September, a few days before one of the last surviving air shows, which drew a crowd of some 50,000 people. That made it the second largest non-sporting event in Scotland-the largest is a rock festival entitled T in the Park. The fact that 50,000 people are able to go and want to go is a reflection, of course, on the base's geographical position adjacent to the main centres of population.
	RAF Leuchars was chosen for its role because it has ready access to training areas over land and over the North sea. It was chosen because the local weather-its particular climate-is very suitable for flying operations. As the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) said, Leuchars has been chosen to perform two essential components of the quick reaction alert, or QRA. The first is to protect northern Britain from unwelcome and illegal intrusion into United Kingdom airspace, which it is called upon to do on an almost regular number of occasions as other air forces seek to determine the state of readiness of the Royal Air Force to defend the UK's airspace.
	The second part of the QRA is the duty that RAF Leuchars has to protect us from terrorist attack from the air and stop any malign effort to do damage to the fabric or population of the United Kingdom. Only a few years ago that possibility would have been thought so remote as not to be regarded but, unhappily, it now has to be given more serious consideration because of the attack on the twin towers and its consequences.
	RAF Leuchars was chosen, therefore, because the established strategic considerations were favourable, and they remain so. It was chosen because the fact that 80% of the Scottish population live within 80 miles demonstrates that it provides the immediacy of protection required. As 111 Squadron, to which I have referred, comes to the end of its service at Leuchars, 6 Squadron will take over. The 111 Squadron has been flying the Tornado F-3, an aircraft that has given us valiant service since its introduction. It is to be replaced by the Typhoon, formerly the Eurofighter, the most modern and up to date of aircraft available to the Royal Air Force.

Stewart Hosie: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is making an extremely strong case for the retention of Leuchars, which the Scottish National party supports. May I ask him to ensure that we do not allow the Government to play Lossiemouth off against Leuchars and to make the case for the retention of all the capacity we have and against the overall reduction of the RAF footprint in Scotland?

Menzies Campbell: I am an advocate for my constituency, but I am also an advocate for the proper disposition of defence installations throughout the whole of Scotland. As the hon. Gentleman knows, when there have been occasions at Lossiemouth and opportunities for joint political action in Scotland, the leader of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland, Tavish Scott, has been present. The hon. Gentleman allows me to make another point, which is that the case for Leuchars and its retention is supported by members of all political parties and of none. I shall refer to that a little further when I come to discuss the impact on the local community. As 111 Squadron, flying the Tornado, has disbanded, 6 Squadron, flying the Typhoon, will take over. It is already fulfilling the responsibilities of the quick reaction alert. At new year, one of the Typhoons had to be scrambled to fulfil the obligation of the QRA. Between them, the two squadrons are working up to the point at which 6 Squadron will resume responsibility and 111 Squadron will stand down.
	Leuchars is also a centre of defence excellence. Apart from 6 Squadron and 111 Squadron, it houses 71 TA Engineer Regiment-I know that will interest you, Mr Deputy Speaker, because of your interest in the Territorial Army-58 Squadron RAF Regiment, 612 Auxiliary Surgical Squadron, recently back from Afghanistan, the Universities Air Squadrons in Scotland, the air cadets and mountain rescue. Shortly, in March 2011, No. 6 RAF Force Protection Wing will accompany 58 Squadron to Afghanistan. I take this public opportunity to wish them Godspeed and a safe return.
	Of course, the speculation has brought about great uncertainty in the local community. An economic impact study is in the course of being prepared by Fife council and I understand that it might be published within the next few days. I shall ensure that the Minister receives a copy hot off the press. We all know that the closure of any base has an impact, but let me illustrate the nature of the impact to which the closure of Leuchars might give rise. In the Leuchars primary school, more than 80% of the children come from RAF families, and in the nearby village of Guardbridge, a substantial percentage of the children are also from RAF families. There is a long history and tradition of integration between the base and the local community, with a heavy accent on charitable activity, all of which helps to create a bond of friendship and respect between community and base. A new community centre has recently been opened outside the wire so that it can be available to both military and civilians. I had the honour to open it in October of last year. A little more mundanely, but of great practical assistance, during the recent snowstorms, personnel from RAF Leuchars were deployed to Edinburgh to help to clear the environs of hospitals so that patients and ambulances could gain easier access.
	The arrival of 6 Squadron did not take place without some consequences, which are to be found in the costs. As the hon. Member for Glenrothes said, the runway has been resurfaced. A new building programme has nearly been completed and I saw evidence of that on Monday when I visited the base in the company of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. Reasonable estimates are that some £40 million has been spent on RAF Leuchars in recent years and as part of these preparations. In addition, there is intensive training not only for air crew but for engineer and ground support. Leuchars is also to be subject to additional investment in information technology for the purpose of improving communications, which are so essential to the successful deployment of military force.
	Ministers have consistently said that decisions about Royal Air Force bases will be made on sound defence principles. I have asked myself, and I ask the Government, what sound defence principle justifies reversing the recently made and paid for decision to deploy three squadrons of Eurofighter Typhoon at Leuchars, confirming Leuchars as an essential component of the UK's air defence? That responsibility has for many years been fulfilled from that base with professionalism, commitment and distinction. I have an alternative principle to offer the Ministry of Defence: if it's not broke, then don't fix it.

Thomas Docherty: I thank the Minister and the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) for giving me a short time to make additional comments. I congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on securing the debate. He has been a long-standing champion of both the community and the military in Fife. He is respected a great deal on both sides of the House for his tireless work. He has mentioned the cross-party support that exists in Fife and Tayside, and it is comforting that Members from both sides of the House and from across the water are present.
	I echo the right hon. and learned Gentleman's comments about the vital role that servicemen and women continue to play at home and overseas at this very difficult time. The Minister will recall that when we had a similar debate in November on the future of RAF Marham, I counselled Members on both sides of the House to conduct the debate in a sensible and considered manner so that we did not end up with communities being pitted against one another. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has done a superb job of articulating his case without seeking to disparage the case of another base that might be under threat.
	The Minister will be aware of the concern among Members of all parties that there is some confusion about the Government's thinking and the priorities that might be afforded to decision making. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury has suggested that decisions might be made on a socio-economic basis, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have said that the decisions will be financial and the Minister and the Secretary of State have said they will be defence-driven. I hope that the Minister will give some clarity as to the weighting that will be given to each of those categories.
	The Minister will also be aware, as I am sure are you, Mr Deputy Speaker, of the Opposition's proposals to place the base closure programme on to a statutory footing in the Armed Forces Bill. I do not seek to rehearse the arguments that the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) and I had on that Bill's Second Reading, except to say that all the communities up and down the UK under some threat of base closure would benefit if the Government accepted an amendment to the Bill that would provide a transparent and clear process. It would be helpful if the Minister could outline tonight the Government's latest thinking on whether they are prepared to accept such an amendment.
	My final question for the Minister is about the continued uncertainty, which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has mentioned, about the time scales for the decision-making process. There was a rather regrettable incident before Christmas in which a Scottish newspaper seemed to have acquired fairly coherent information about decisions that might have been made. Hon. Members will recall the Standing Order 24 debate that we had about that. It would help if the Minister outlined what the timetable for any such decision will be. Will he also guarantee to do all in his power to ensure that the communities affected, rather than media outlets, will be the first to know?

Nick Harvey: I commend my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) for initiating this debate on the future of RAF Leuchars which, as the House will understand, is a subject of great importance to his constituency and more widely. My right hon. and learned Friend knows Leuchars very well, and I hope that during his visit yesterday with the Secretary of State for Scotland he saw once more what a fantastic job our personnel are doing.
	I put on record my thanks to all those who work at RAF Leuchars and to the local community who have, over the years, given such strong support to the station, the RAF and the nation. I know this support is appreciated by all who are serving at the base.
	RAF Leuchars has a long and honourable history. Aircraft from Leuchars have policed UK airspace for nearly 60 years, demonstrating the ability to intercept unidentified aircraft and thereby provide an effective deterrent. Given RAF Leuchars' history and contribution to defence, it is understandable that my right hon. and learned Friend has spoken so passionately about its retention, both here in Parliament and in representations to me and to the Secretary of State.
	In October, we published the strategic defence and security review, which was based on two clear priorities: supporting our mission in Afghanistan and setting the path to a coherent and affordable defence capability in 2020 and beyond. This took place against the Government's clear determination to address the unprecedented fiscal deficit that we inherited. Every Department has had to make a contribution, and the Ministry of Defence is playing its part, but because of the priority that we place on security, the defence budget is making a more modest contribution to deficit reduction than many other Departments. Even so, this has regrettably meant tough decisions. It is painful, but we have to make sacrifices to get the economy and the defence programme back on track.
	Our fleet of Harrier and Tornado air defence and ground attack aircraft have performed magnificently over 30 years, but those aircraft risk becoming outdated as threats continue to become more varied and sophisticated, and maintenance of the fleets will become an increasing challenge so the decisions to retire the Harriers and to reduce the number of Tornados were difficult, but we have to focus resources where they are most needed now-in support of our current operations.
	The RAF plans to make a transition to a fast-jet force comprising the Typhoon and the joint strike fighter by the end of the decade. This makes both make operational and economic sense. We know from our work on the SDSR that RAF Kinloss and two other bases will no longer be needed by the RAF. Public and parliamentary attention has focused on the consequences for Tornado ground attack bases at RAF Lossiemouth in Moray and RAF Marham in Norfolk, and the Typhoon and Tornado fighter base at RAF Leuchars.
	Today, RAF Leuchars' mission is to deliver and maintain UK quick reaction alert (interceptor) north, concurrent with the growth of Typhoon, while supporting other military operations. The delivery of the northern element of quick reaction alert is RAF Leuchars' top priority and requires Typhoon and Tornado F3 fighter aircraft to hold high alert to scramble and intercept unidentified aircraft approaching UK airspace. RAF Leuchars is geographically well located for the delivery of QRA operations. However, it may be possible to mount northern QRA from another location. Lossiemouth and Leeming in north Yorkshire would be possible options.
	As well as the support for RAF Leuchars offered by my right hon. and learned Friend this evening, I have had similar representations from the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) regarding RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth, and from my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) regarding RAF Marham. It is essential to stress once again to the House that a decision on which of these bases will no longer be required by the RAF should not be taken to mean that they will no longer be required for defence purposes. We are now taking forward work to analyse the basing and estate consequences of the SDSR in their entirety, and to develop a coherent plan for the future of the whole defence estate. This piece of work goes well beyond the bases directly affected by the SDSR. For example, the Prime Minister has announced our intention to accelerate the rebasing of the Army from Germany, which must also be taken into account, along with the greater efficiencies that must be made through broader estate rationalisation.
	The Ministry of Defence will need to determine what makes the most sense for the structure of our armed forces, including where they are based, where they need to train and operate from and the need to ensure value for money for the British taxpayer. Contrary to media speculation, no matter how well informed Members might have believed it to be, no decisions have been taken on our future basing requirements beyond those I have outlined. It will take time to work out which bases we will retain and the uses to which they will be put.
	We know that these are important decisions and that we must get them right. The Ministry of Defence has been clear, and I repeat, that we do not expect that work to be concluded for some time yet, but we hope it will be by the summer. I know and regret that that means uncertainty for the people and communities concerned, but we will not rush to a conclusion without deep and proper analysis. As the SDSR states, we will aim to do so in a way that is sensitive to economic and social pressures and the needs of our people and their families.
	We also want to ensure that any decisions fully take into consideration the implications for Tornado personnel operating in Afghanistan over the coming year and for their families. We are consulting other Departments, the Scottish Government, local communities and relevant agencies, as appropriate, to manage the local impact of our decisions. We must do further work to establish the detail of how to progress, but I am determined that at the end of the process the United Kingdom will have a coherent plan to deliver an estate that supports the capabilities we need to keep our people safe, meet our responsibilities to our allies and friends and secure our national interests.
	As they were in the SDSR, our decisions have to be objective, unsentimental and based on the military advice we receive. I stress again that the military considerations are paramount among the factors that we will consider. We need to focus finite resources where they are most needed. We know that the RAF will be smaller and will inevitably need fewer flying stations. Although it will become leaner, we can maximise investment in new aircraft and also assure full support to current and contingent operations. The transition to the combined fast-jet fleet of joint strike fighters and Typhoon will certainly provide the RAF with world-class capability for the future.

Thomas Docherty: Will the Minister give way?

Nick Harvey: I think that I might be about to answer the point that the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) wishes to raise. My right hon. and learned Friend has called on the Government to base our decisions on military necessity, the reality of the public purse and the socio-economic impacts on the areas affected, and I assure him that that is precisely what we will do. I have chosen carefully the order in which I put those criteria: the military considerations come first. They must be in line with economic considerations, but we are in no way immune to the wider impact that those decisions will have and, of course, and will listen to representations from Members from both sides of the House on the impact they will have on communities. All three factors will be taken into consideration. I think that that was the point that the hon. Gentleman wished to raise.

Thomas Docherty: I am grateful for the Minister's clarification. Am I correct in thinking that there is perhaps a fourth factor that should be seen as part of the whole discussion, which is the consideration given to what other uses the surplus bases could be turned?

Nick Harvey: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the other military uses to which bases can be put are part and parcel of the decision making, but I think that he is wrong to view that as a fourth factor. They are absolutely part and parcel of the military considerations that will inform us first and foremost, and of the economic considerations that will flow from that. Indeed, they will have considerable socio-economic impacts on the communities in each case. The SDSR is a process that will transform our armed forces to meet the challenges of the future. That includes the defence estate. We will now press on with that work.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 House adjourned.